Clone boxes destroyed by gemini

[theorical]

i have also been told by the official UK distributor of dboxes

theres no such thing as an official uk distributor of dboxs!

 

[mgb]

Can someone show me the patent for DMM owning exclusively the bootloader?

There is none. The bootloader code doesn't even include a copyright string.

 

[nozzer]

DMM have the right to delete their stolen Property (Bootloader) that was installed illegally on copied Hardware.

This is the nub of the problem. the rest of the argument regarding clones is irrelevant.

Under UK & EU legislation the dreambox can be classed as a general purpose microcomputer. Any company or person which willfully distributes a virus in order to interfere with the operation of that computing device is commiting an offence - plain and simple !

While I defend DMM's right to protect their investments the way they have chosen to do this, I would argue, is unlawful. If they had siimply made their drivers incompatible then that would of achieved the same objective without being malicious. By actively seeking to destroy someone else's property (the fact that that property may contain material which DMM claim to own is again irrelevant) DMM have well overstepped the mark.

I wonder what you would think if the bootloader in these clones contained no DMM code (bootloaders are piss easy to write). Would you still think that dream had acted responsibly ?

 

[pt-1]

This is the nub of the problem. the rest of the argument regarding clones is irrelevant.

Under UK & EU legislation the dreambox can be classed as a general purpose microcomputer. Any company or person which willfully distributes a virus in order to interfere with the operation of that computing device is commiting an offence - plain and simple !

While I defend DMM's right to protect their investments the way they have chosen to do this, I would argue, is unlawful. If they had siimply made their drivers incompatible then that would of achieved the same objective without being malicious. By actively seeking to destroy someone else's property (the fact that that property may contain material which DMM claim to own is again irrelevant) DMM have well overstepped the mark.

I wonder what you would think if the bootloader in these clones contained no DMM code (bootloaders are piss easy to write). Would you still think that dream had acted responsibly ?

Show me a dead box ... They are still working if the Fakers write their own software

 

[nozzer]

I notice you chose not to answer my main comments !

As an addon to the above, no company has a right to destroy someone elses property, copyrighted, patented or not without a court order. Show me DMM's court order

 

[dctyper]

Do the adds quote they are fake?

no, they dont. but does anyone? do you think that the site that produced this software that breaks boxes advertises the same boxes in the ame we do here? swings and roundabouts

 

[mgb]

The brand "Dreambox is not protected, the bootloader is copied from the linux ppc scene, the cloners got the license to use the tuner firmware inlcuded in the bootloader code.
Where are the DMM rights for the bootloader?
Beside that a software without any copyright string doesn't suggest there is anything protected.
The whole story about DMM rights is only a bad excuse from virus coders.

 

[trackermut]

Can you class as virus or malicious? Software was created to run on one product there own ( bootloader by dmm ) and as far as i understand no original boxes have been damaged.

Two types pure clones designed and made as cheap carbon copies and dirty clones 500 with a new suit Eagle, Envision Black box and my own personal favorite Eurovox Ultra. I still have difficulties seeing why DM takes the flak and the poor wee cloners who have done nothing for the Linux community are not mentioned, these are the parties we should be flaming.

Remember this was second stage, Nozzer made the fair comment disable clones, well Gemini tried this with blue panel which hardly gained a foot not on most forums and was quickly over come so they took further action and we turn on dream but not cloners they had there warning shot.

This is not Dreams mess to sort out.

Again from Nozzer another good comment boot loader are piss easy to write. so were are original images for Envison,Eagle, And the beloved Eurovox Ultra? and can you see any of these manufactures taking legal action against Dream ( hope your not holding your breath ) now that would be a can of worms worth watching when opened.

This monster thread/debate is a credit to Dw and great content after the recent weeks of VM madness but are we discussing the correct manufactures?

 

[mgb]

The killer virus inside the gemini image simply delete part of the bootloader code after checking the mac.
The killer virus didn't reach the official cvs server because after that the police would have visit DMM.

 

[nozzer]

Can you class as virus or malicious? Software was created to run on one product there own ( bootloader by dmm ) and as far as i understand no original boxes have been damaged.

Yes, what would you think if IBM decided to write a virus that ran on every clone PC ?

Ok, IBM's patents on PC technology were relinquished long ago but the argument still holds. What if IBM had destroyed 10's of thousands of clone PC's back in the 90's ?

As i've said previously, the debate shouldn't be about whether DMM have the right to protect their products, they clearly have. The debate should simply be about whether DMM have the right to destroy people's property without any form of legal authorisation and whether their attempts so far should be classed as the release of a virus, which could potentially land DMM board members in jail !

Two types pure clones designed and made as cheap carbon copies and dirty clones 500 with a new suit Eagle, Envision Black box and my own personal favorite Eurovox Ultra. I still have difficulties seeing why DM takes the flak and the poor wee cloners who have done nothing for the Linux community are not mentioned, these are the parties we should be flaming.

Agreed to some extent. The cloners are at fault for doing what they did but you also have to remember that cloning of just about anything is endemic in the far east. It most places its barely considered a crime.

Remember this was second stage, Nozzer made the fair comment disable clones, well Gemini tried this with blue panel which hardly gained a foot not on most forums and was quickly over come so they took further action and we turn on dream but not cloners they had there warning shot.

It was never the gemini teams business to do anything about this. If DMM had a problem then they should of taken the appropriate legal action.

This is not Dreams mess to sort out.

The mess may not be entirely of DMM's making but it is there's, and there's alone to sort out. Its certainly not the problem of people who have bought these clone devices.

Again from Nozzer another good comment boot loader are piss easy to write. so were are original images for Envison,Eagle, And the beloved Eurovox Ultra? and can you see any of these manufactures taking legal action against Dream ( hope your not holding your breath ) now that would be a can of worms worth watching when opened.

I seriously doubt there will be any legal action from anyone. We all know thats far too expensive for either DMM or the clone manufacturers.

Having had a quick look (very cursory) at the bootloader btw, i've decided that there is probably very little code in it that DMM can actually claim to be their own. The vast majority of device set up stuff is actually directly copied straight from reference code freely available from the device manufacturers (assuming you are buying a few thousand of their particular devices). In terms of work I doubt DMM spent more than a man-week on customising the reference code.

This monster thread/debate is a credit to Dw and great content after the recent weeks of VM madness but are we discussing the correct manufactures?

Must admit, it is quite an interesting thread and does make a welcome change from the usual mundane stuff.

 

[trackermut]

Sorry dont believe Gemini teams response, if so were is alternative image without new driver. and they are firmly in dreams pocket hard to believe they were not informed and are whiter than white.

Very Hard to compare Ibm to Deam do you think in hindsight IBM would again gift wrap mr Gates and co deal of the century again.

Yes i feel for the people who purchased cloned boxes, but can we lay that at the door of DM?. Surely if you sell a product you should support it and not expect others competing companies to develop support and take responsibility for your products short comings.

Dose any one have any info/release or statement from Envision/Eagle/Eurovox ultra regarding bootloader interesting to read there stance on bootloader and were do there customer stand is the warranty valid or invalid after using upgraded software?

 

[nozzer]

Sorry dont believe Gemini teams response, if so were is alternative image without new driver. and they are firmly in dreams pocket hard to believe they were not informed and are whiter than white.

Your very probably correct. I suspect that the Gemini team fully colluded in this. The statement is probably solely designed to extricate themselves from any legal comeback as I imagine they know they could be in deep shit !

Very Hard to compare Ibm to Deam do you think in hindsight IBM would again gift wrap mr Gates and co deal of the century again.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it !

The point is that IBM PC's were cloned to hell, including the bios, but no one would of accepted IBM adding something into DOS or Windows that physically killed the clones.

Yes i feel for the people who purchased cloned boxes, but can we lay that at the door of DM?. Surely if you sell a product you should support it and not expect others competing companies to develop support and take responsibility for your products short comings.

lol, an interesting viewpoint considering DMM expect the opensource community to support their box rather than supporting it themselves.

Dose any one have any info/release or statement from Envision/Eagle/Eurovox ultra regarding bootloader interesting to read there stance on bootloader and were do there customer stand is the warranty valid or invalid after using upgraded software?

I doubt you will ever get this. They have no real need to make any statement and they are effectively too remote to have to honour any warranty etc. Most companies though, probably including DMM, do assert that any modification will invalidate a warranty. I'd guess that a firmware change would be classed as a modification.

I still think we are skirting along the issue here in debating what the clone manufacturers may or may not of done rather than debating the legality of what DMM have done. Its a classic case of DMM trying to fix a wrong with another wrong.

 

[trackermut]

I still think we are skirting along the issue here in debating what the clone manufacturers may or may not of done rather than debating the legality of what DMM have done. Its a classic case of DMM trying to fix a wrong with another wrong.

Dont think we are skirting any issues, we can debate the legalities of this until we are blue in the face but as previous mentioned we have had no statements from clone manufacturers so we can assume they wil not be opening a can of worms by approaching dream with any argument or legal action leaving dream to continue there current practice. The line dream have take is fairly dubious but clear the software was coded for there product only and is perfectly safe on original dream boxes any other use of the software on none dream products will possibly cause problems. Without anyone standing up with hard legal cash to debate there strong arm methods they will continue on to there next alleged action against clone sat user.This is only the beginning and dream have shown very clearly there control over linux dvb software expect to see action in the future from all major teams who for the main have firm links to dream. Dreams one major error was letting the clones become so wide spread before taking action and now they may face having there reputation dented and loss of customer confidence knowing this is only a prerunner and expect the same kind of trick to be used on 600's and 7020's which many cloners are touting around the DVB market place at present.

 

[Gingerchris]

Hello everyone. Firstly, let me thank all concerned for an informative and good natured debate. Like a breath of fresh air on here.

Secondly, to my questions:-

1...are DMM the sole providers/creators of the CVS?

2...if answer to question no1 is yes, if/when DMM include the new drivers into the CVS is there any way to remove and replace them with known good ones, through decompiling, etc. or just through the removal of the newly added clone killing code?

Thanks again for your input, Chris.

 

[trackermut]

Hello everyone. Firstly, let me thank all concerned for an informative and good natured debate. Like a breath of fresh air on here.

Secondly, to my questions:-

1...are DMM the sole providers/creators of the CVS?

2...if answer to question no1 is yes, if/when DMM include the new drivers into the CVS is there any way to remove and replace them with known good ones, through decompiling, etc. or just through the removal of the newly added clone killing code?

Thanks again for your input, Chris.

1. Dream in away do hold the cvs ( cvs.tuxbox.org ) which holds dreambox and dbox cvs. long story but dream do employee all the coders ( Dream box employed these coders after dbox 2 went under, decent story beind it )

2. Strange you ask this question today for months there has been little development in tux box but today there has be significant changes as yet not sure if anything malicious has been added but would not be shocked if there is another wee surprise waiting for clone boxes inside ( due to size not the easiest thing to find ) but would not be building new image for cloned boxes from this source.

 

[calhordas]

Who are working on firmware for DMM ,and who was the main maintainer of the CVS tuxbox ..? compare well the name..
Dream has the idea to make more powerfull receiver and too take the old team to make it, do you think they work for free ??


This just simply isnt true,,,,, If they produced the Envision with the same components as the dm500 with there own design, then why are they relying on the dream Head.ko driver file?
Answer: 1) they dont spend money on development to make there own bootloader!!! 2) they are using a copyrighted and patented bootloader, made and developed by DREAM soooo you explain why there doing nothing wrong..
So dreamup is not used to flash receiver?, Head.ko is not used? , and bootloader shipped with the receiver is not the property of DMM.? but they can use the hardware which they class as there own? nah sorry dont buy it.

On the otherhand,, If they had to make a tuxbox reciever,, but DID give a dam about development then they would be like companys like Dgstation or Itgate and have genuine non dreambox-clone enigma boxes which run on there own bootloaders, own firmwares, yet have the enigma feel.

End of the day, I know its not the users and customers fault,, BUT there has to be something done,, and with , no offence ment to anyone on here, there are many 'Gurus, mods and all types of member' on here actually recomending people to buy a clone,, but now there getting killed its the manufactors fault?

in conclusion no ifs or buts,, Clone is Clone, and shouldnt have the right to use dreams software/drivers and bootloaders.

edited-


First question answers itself,, are clones really clones,, of course they are hence why you can pick one up for £60 when the originals were RRP £150,, ( again, the RRP should have no relavance to wheather its ok for them to kill clones or not )
Second question you again answered yourself, Yes there made in china, and about 200 yards from the main clone factory,,, but this is common practice in that type of industry, obviously cheaper for them to do that,,, but again, this isnt just dream ,, any larger company would Obviously go the cheapest route to production line, the main thing being theres is genuine.

Hi m8

Just to quote you on something that perhaps you do not know.... but because i love reading i managed to come across some good insight information from the company you praise so much...... so in latest reading i managed to find that the so calle dmm drives from bootloader head.ko are the same contained inside the Dbox drivers licence GPL, and if thats the case dmm are also breaking the law by reusing property of other brand.

In fact dbox related person have taken dmm to court as you find the readings here in these 2 links


http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9161119242.html


http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20040725150736471



what do u make of that info then.......

No hard feelings but we need to know inforamation before we join along and talk 100's of posts.........

 

[Davido123]

just as i thought, DMM dont own exclusive copyright to bootloader and in fact used someone elses creation Ironic aint it when someone else is using their (so-called) creation

 

[JonMMM]

OK I have posted this before (my boxes are not clones) but the only license agreement that I can see is thr GNU one, which as far as I know allows others to use the code?

So a bomb in the code was well out of order.

AS to the hardware rip offs I have no idea.

Jon

 

[trackermut]

Hi m8

Just to quote you on something that perhaps you do not know.... but because i love reading i managed to come across some good insight information from the company you praise so much...... so in latest reading i managed to find that the so calle dmm drives from bootloader head.ko are the same contained inside the Dbox drivers licence GPL, and if thats the case dmm are also breaking the law by reusing property of other brand.

Still dont under stand this argument, i must be missing something are you condoning cloned boxes and expecting dream to support them, Do you really want to loose the major player in the dvb linux market in favour of cloned manufactures who will quickly abandon the market and move to the next product for a quick buck.

 

[JonMMM]

Still dont under stand this argument, i must be missing something are you condoning cloned boxes and expecting dream to support them, Do you really want to loose the major player in the dvb linux market in favour of cloned manufactures who will quickly abandon the market and move to the next product for a quick buck.

I don't think we are condoning cloned boxes, but DMM have not acted correctly ALL the software is covered under the GNU agreement, which ALLOWS the cloning companies to use it, they (the cloning companies) have done nothing wrong by using it. As to the hardware from what I have read is reference so also nothing wrong. In fact the only legal issue against some of the cloning companies is using the DMM name and that does not apply to them all.

Basically the cloning companies that do not use the DMM name, may be morally wrong but not legally.

DMM may be morally right in their reaction, but not legally.

Anyway thats how I see it, if I,m wrong please explain how.