Clone boxes destroyed by gemini

The Bootloader is like the Bios of your PC !

This Bios (Bootloader) on the DMM is not GNU ! It is DMM's property and has been stolen/copied
The Image is Open Source (GNU) but the Hardware still needs drivers and they are again closed source !

Please do not construct a 'strawman' argument against me. You answered a point i did not raise, thus easily proving yourself right because I did not make a counter point in the first place. Just like the implication that I said intellectual property cannot be stolen anywhere else but China, which I did not say.

The Comparrison with BSlyB is a different one, I am if I would use other Technology violating their Contract and they can cancel their Contract with me but depending on what technology I use to do so I am not violating any copyright law.

Now you are answering my question. True, the distinction is between copyright law and a legally binding contract which you accept. However the point you do not reply on is regarding two companies, 1. who protect lines of proprietary code by actually breaking hardware, 2. a company who chooses to protect its own network security by forcing a consumer to sign up to only using it's hardware.

1. DMM

2. BskyB

There are plenty of people who will believe that company 1. has been more insidious in nature than company 2.

You however believe 1. to be a stainless action used by a poor church mouse business to protect its investment, and believe 2. to be a vast multi national monopoly who are using their market position to force consumers to do what they want.

I believe you are being wilfully blind because you are protecting your friends.
 
I was referring to his last sentence:



Which syntactically implies that the hardware is both illegal and stolen hence the slash.

But I take your point. I think sometimes his (pt-1's) grasp of English sometimes falters (although I must admit it is very good most of the time).

I wish you would respond to my logical proof that pt-1 would like his cake, and then to eat it regarding my BskyB comparison. Basically because DMM is a small business started by friends of his, he wishes to apply different rules to them than for instance the position he takes against sky's monopoly and their terms of service. Yes I am comparing copyright with a contract, but they are still both articles protected by law, that both companies use to defend their investment.

The pigs are more equal than others it seems.

I do not understand who you refer to as my Friends ? All the German People because I am German ?

I do not know anybody personally within DMM nor do I own any DMM Hardware or have ever bought any DMM Hardware nor have I ever benefit from any discount whilst purchasing any DMM Hardware.

Again there is a difference between a Contract created by a Company and the Law that applies to a Country/European Union.

I do not like to be forced to have to use crap Hardware and have to be limited by a Company to have a bad TV Picture only because their contract states it.

You will not brake any Law if Volkswagen tells you to always fill up your car with Super. You might not get the full engine power by using normal Petrol and you might violate their Service Agreement and loose warrenty but you do nothing Illegal.

I use the BslyB Argument as they built up a massive monopoly and you must even use their Hardware to be able to view BBC as you will not get EPG for more than Now and Next as BslyB uses OpenTV.

The same for ITV and Channel4/Five

I can legally receive BBC with my German Sat Dbox2 and I can use the Dolby Digital Out even if BslyB would want me to use their Sky+ Receiver as no others that I am aware of have a digital/coax out.

The same if I quit Sky and keep my Sky+ receiver I can no longer use it as it needs a Card to work and therefore I can chuck it away.

I hope that BBC & Co sort this out when they move to a new Sat Platform later this year as I find it unfair to force a Customer to buy monopolized Hardware only to be able to view the Programs that he/she pays for with their License fee.

A good friend of mine lives in Wales and she cannot Receive DVB-T and MUST use Sly. But she cannot refuse to pay the license Fee...

That is my Argumnet !

The same rubbish that Sly forces you to watch Football when they want to show it as their argument is that nobody would watch it live if it would be shown at the time it is on ....

In Germany Premiere (PayTV) shows the Games when they are on (that is live) and it shows all the Games including 1 or 2 selected English games with English comentary ...

You cannot watch Sly or even Freesat without using stolen technology as the camd includes copyrighted software and therefore in that example you break Law and not only a contract.

For the FTA (FreeToAir) BBC&ITV you can quite happy use superior technology without blowing money up someones Backside
 
The Bootloader is like the Bios of your PC !

This Bios (Bootloader) on the DMM is not GNU ! It is DMM's property and has been stolen/copied
The Image is Open Source (GNU) but the Hardware still needs drivers and they are again closed source !

Say who?
Did you ever take a look at the bootloader block?
 
I do not understand who you refer to as my Friends ? All the German People because I am German ?

Nope. I refer to your earlier post.

I read and chat to some of the guys that develop software for DMM nearly every day and there are already 8000's out there in the field being tested.

You are obviously conveying their side of the story. Some people on here just think that they have gone too far, me included.

I do not know anybody personally within DMM nor do I own any DMM Hardware or have ever bought any DMM Hardware nor have I ever benefit from any discount whilst purchasing any DMM Hardware.

I wasn't trying to say you are in the pay of DMM mate, honestly. Just that you obviously chat to the coders that work for them and are trying to fight their corner. I just don't think deep down you believe yourself that the actions they are taking are reasonable and proportionate.

Again there is a difference between a Contract created by a Company and the Law that applies to a Country/European Union.

I do not like to be forced to have to use crap Hardware and have to be limited by a Company to have a bad TV Picture only because their contract states it.

You will not brake any Law if Volkswagen tells you to always fill up your car with Super. You might not get the full engine power by using normal Petrol and you might violate their Service Agreement and loose warrenty but you do nothing Illegal.

Voiding a warranty and voiding an ongoing mutual contractual obligation to use a service are two different things. A contract is a legal document whether you like it or not.

I use the BslyB Argument as they built up a massive monopoly and you must even use their Hardware to be able to view BBC as you will not get EPG for more than Now and Next as BslyB uses OpenTV.

The same for ITV and Channel4/Five

I can legally receive BBC with my German Sat Dbox2 and I can use the Dolby Digital Out even if BslyB would want me to use their Sky+ Receiver as no others that I am aware of have a digital/coax out.

The same if I quit Sky and keep my Sky+ receiver I can no longer use it as it needs a Card to work and therefore I can chuck it away.

I hope that BBC & Co sort this out when they move to a new Sat Platform later this year as I find it unfair to force a Customer to buy monopolized Hardware only to be able to view the Programs that he/she pays for with their License fee.

A good friend of mine lives in Wales and she cannot Receive DVB-T and MUST use Sly. But she cannot refuse to pay the license Fee...

That is my Argument !

Everyone who owns a Television in the UK needs to pay the license fee, DVB-T, SKY or otherwise. This has nothing to do with SKY. Anyway, this is an argument for another day, and one I may agree with you on.

The same rubbish that Sly forces you to watch Football when they want to show it as their argument is that nobody would watch it live if it would be shown at the time it is on ....

In Germany Premiere (PayTV) shows the Games when they are on (that is live) and it shows all the Games including 1 or 2 selected English games with English comentary ...

You cannot watch Sly or even Freesat without using stolen technology as the camd includes copyrighted software and therefore in that example you break Law and not only a contract.

For the FTA (FreeToAir) BBC&ITV you can quite happy use superior technology without blowing money up someones Backside

I agree. There are channels available where you can watch TV channels for free and not be under a sky contract. So? This still has nothing to do with my comparitive between DMM and sky, and how they protect their investment.
 
Say who?
Did you ever take a look at the bootloader block?

My last post here... Comment out of another Forum.. Use Google to translate:

The Gemini Team Sonntag, 20. April 2008

Stellungnahme
des IHAD zu aktuellen Ereignissen
rund um The Gemini Project 4.3.1

http://www.i-have-a-dreambox.com

Einleitung
Aufgrund unserer Wiedereröffnung geben wir nun hiermit als IHAD-Team offen ein Statement zu den vergangenen Tagen. Wir tun dies gleichzeitig mit der Wiedereröffnung der IHAD. Hoffentlich können wir unseren normalen Nutzern damit Antworten geben und unsern 'Kritikern' entgegen treten.
Zu anderen SAT Foren in der Dreambox Scene und deren Propaganda Aktionen nehmen wir zu einem späteren Zeitpunkt Stellung.
Wie die Treiber ins Image gelangt sind
Nachdem wir unsere BluePanel-Sperre eingebaut hatten und diese die ersten 2-3 Tage nach dem Release auch zufrieden stellend funktionierte aber anschließend ein Patch zum Umgehen der Sperre verfügbar war, haben wir von DMM exklusiv neue Treiber für die 500er geschickt bekommen, welche anschließend ins CVS übernommen werden würden. Diese sollten eine neue Funktion enthalten, mit der es möglich wäre JPG-Bilder anzeigen zu können.

Wir als Team haben natürlich 1:1 zusammen gerechnet und haben uns schon gedacht, dass da vielleicht etwas drin sein könnte, was den Rechten von DMM an den Treibern Rechnung tragen könnte. Also vermuteten wir, dass eventuell seitens DMM Funktionen zur Klonbox Erkennung eingebaut wurden.

Ein Test auf einer Blackbox konnte diese Vermutung nicht bestätigen, denn die lief nach wie vor ohne Probleme. Und mal ehrlich: Warum sollen wir einen Treiber, der ohne Frage viele Vorteile für die DM500 Besitzer darstellt, nicht benutzen?
Wir haben uns entschlossen diesen Treiber auch weiterhin in unser DM500-Image einzubauen. Es gibt 2 Gründe, die schon mal dafür sprechen. Erstens warum sollten rechtmäßige DM500-Benutzer "bestraft" werden und auf die Verbesserungen des Treibers verzichten müssen und Zweitens; wer sich das Gemini jetzt noch auf seine Blackbox oder Clone spielt, dem ist dann wirklich nicht mehr zu helfen.

Was passiert ist
Am 27.02.2008 haben wir das The Gemini Project 4.3.1 DM500 inkl. den neuen Treibern released. Seit dieser Woche tritt dann die sogenannte „Time Bomb“ in Kraft und legt die nachgebauten Dreamboxen lahm. Es erscheint eine Meldung „Warning – clone box detected - system stop. Contact your dealer – adios amigo!“. Anschließend booten diese Boxen nicht mehr. Es wurde der Teil, der zum Betrieb nötigen Software gelöscht, der unter der geschlossenen, nur für Dreamboxen lizenzierten Lizenz steht. Diese Lizenz beschränkt die freie Nutzung der Software ausschließlich auf Dreamboxen. Eine andere Nutzung auf anderer Hardware ist demnach nicht zulässig und somit (wie immer gern gesagt wird) illegal. Das Problem ist das der gelöschte Teil das bildlich gesprochene BIOS eines PCs ist. Und ohne ein funktionierendes BIOS bootet eine Box nicht mehr.
Das Kuriose an der Sache ist, dass die jetzt ausgefallenen Klonboxen von vorn herein mit dieser DMM Software ausgeliefert wurden und zum Teil auch mit dem Gemini Image geflashed waren. Also von vorn herein ab Werk mit einer Lizenzverletzung. Und da ist es früher oder später nur logisch, dass der Hersteller und Besitzer dieser Software Schritte einleitet und etwas unternimmt. Wir als IHAD und Gemini Team stimmen der von DMM durchgeführten Aktion grundsätzlich zu, wurden jedoch von der Härte, die dabei benutzt wurde aber auch überrascht. Denn wie es so aus sieht sind die betroffenen Boxen nur noch mit Eingriffen in die Hardware neu zu bespielen und die Chips wieder zu beleben. Doch hier stellen sich wieder die Lizenzfrage. Denn es ist derzeit keine Alternative zur DMM-Software bzw. eine eigene vom Klon Hersteller zu Verfügung gestellten Software für das BIOS vorhanden. Also würde es sich um eine strafbare Handlung handeln, wenn man versucht eine 'ausgeschaltete' Box mit DMM-Software wieder zum Leben zu erwecken.

Warum wir das Board geschlossen haben
Im Verlauf der Woche haben sich vermehrt User gemeldet, deren Boxen aufgrund der Time Bomb gesperrt waren. Und deren Beschimpfungen und Beleidigungen kannten keine Grenzen. Und weil wir nach 2 Tagen immer noch kein Ende der Flut an Postings sahen, haben wir unser Forum offline geschaltet. Diese Art der Postings müssen wir uns bei dieser Sache nicht antun.
Wir haben eben keine Verantwortung für den Umfang der Aktion. Denn das Wissen um dies lag einzig und allein bei DMM und muss dort zu verantworten sein. Wir verantworten eine grundsätzliche Bereitschaft etwas, auch mit 'Zitat: versteckten und Viren ähnlichen Funktionen“, gegen Klone zu tun. Und dies haben wir in der Vergangenheit auch öfters zum Ausdruck gebracht. Denn wir sind alle Dreambox-Fans, unser Hobby besteht aus Geräten dieser Firma und wir würden uns selbst ins Fleisch schneiden, wenn wird nichts unternehmen würden. Es kann eben nicht in unserem Interesse sein, dass durch nicht an der Entwicklung beteiligte Hersteller, Umsatz den eigentlichen Entwicklern abgenommen wird.
Das Posten von Adressen von Team Mitgliedern und Zitate wie „Mein Baseballschläger könnte auch mal den Rücken der Team Mitglieder streicheln“ waren schließlich die Grenze des guten Geschmackes und wir haben unsere Pforten mit dem Verweis auf DMM geschlossen.

Wie ihr uns unterstützen könnt
Unterstützt das IHAD und geht gegen Klone vor!
Benutzt diese Bilder als Avatar oder Signatur in Foren in denen ihr so unterwegs seid. Zeigt Flagge für das IHAD und sagt eure Meinung zu Klonen!

stop_klone.png
ihad_supporter.png
ihad2.png
banner_ich_bin_ihad.png

Andere Bildformate sind zusätzlich unter http://www.i-have-a-dreambox.com/klon/ verlink und abrufbar. Alles weitere findet ihr dazu unter Unterstützt das IHAD und geht gegen Klone vor! .
Wenn ihr eigene Entwürfe habt könnt ihr sie uns gerne per PM schicken.
 
Translation:

Statement
by IHAD regarding the current situation
of the Gemini 4.3.1 release


Introduction:
Cause of our re-opening,we the IHAD Team,are now giving a statement regarding the events that took place in the last days.
Hopefully we can answer a few questions to our regular users
and work a little against the criticism from others.
Regarding the propaganda of some other Sat Boards,we will make a statement in the future as well.

How the drivers became part of the image:
After we started our Blue Panel lock which worked quite ok up to 2-3 days after the start,a work-around patch became public that made it pretty much obsolete.
After this event,DMM offered us exclusivly, a new driver for the DM500 that should become part of the CVS shortly after.
This driver should make it possible to display jpeg files,with the DM500.

We the Team,did put 1 and 1 together and thought,that this new driver might have something in it to help DMM protect their rights.
So we assumed that this new driver might have some kind of clone detection.

Nevertheless a test on a Blackbox,which took place,couldn't confirm this assumtion.
The Blackbox was working without any problems in our tests.
And honestly:Why shouldn't we use a driver that without any doubt brought many improvments for the users of the DM500.
We also decided to keep on using this driver in our DM500 images.
This has to reasons...
First:Why should regular DM500 users be punished by not getting improvements for their box.
Second:Anyone who now still puts the gemini image on their Blackbox Reciever,simply should have known better.


What has happend:
On the 27th of march 2008 the Gemini 4.3.1 DM500 including the new drivers was released by us.
Since that time the so called "Time Bomb" was active and at some point started to delete the boot loader of the Clone boxes that used the image.
An announcement was displayed that said:"Warning - clone box detected -system stop. Contact your dealer - adios amigo!"
Afterwards the box shut down and didn't boot anymore.
Deleted was the part that is necessary to boot software on the box,this part was under license of DreamMultimedia.
This license includes that this part of the sofware can only be used for the Dreambox STB.
Usage on other hardware is completly prohibited and therefor illegal!
The problem is,that the deleted part is the,so to speak,bios.Similiar to the bios of a PC and without this bios the box won't boot.
The weired thing about all this is,that these cloneboxes,had this DMM software pre-installed,some of them even had the Gemini image pre-installed on it.
Which meant a DMM license violation right from the beginning.
So it must be completly logical to everyone,that DMM(the rightful owner of this software) had to start countermessures at some point.
We the IHAD Board and Gemini Team support this action,that was taken by DMM,but were also supprised by the harshness of the action.
Cause as it seems the box can only be "resurected" with a hardware based operation(JTAG) that writes the booloader back to the chip.
Which brings us right back to the license problem,cause there is no alternative,free software/bootloader made available by the manufactor of the cloneboxs for these kind of STBs.
So it basically would be illegal too,to write the DMM software back to the chip of the unlicend STB.


Why we decided to close the board:
Over the last couple of days many users have registered at IHAD,that were affected by the "Time Bomb" and their insults and acusations knew no boundaries.
And as we,after 2 days,didn't see and end to all this ,we decided to close the board.
We just couldn't accept this kind of treatment towards us,cause we have no responsebility whatsoever,regarding the actions that were taken by DMM.
They were the only ones that had knowledge about the countermessures that were taken.
Nevertheless,we do take general responsebility for actively working against these clones.Which we already stated on several occasions in the past.
We are all Dreambox fans and our hobby is made possible by the products developed and sold by DreamMultimedia and we would practically work against ourselfs,if we wouldn't act against these cloned STBs.
It simply can not be in our interest that manufactors, that are not involved in the developing process,take profits from the real developers.
The posting of real adresses of IHAD Team members and statements like:"I would like to pet their backs with my baseball bat."
and such, simply were beyond all manners.
And so we closed the doors of the IHAD board.

How you can support us:
Support the IHAD and fight against clones.
Use these pictures as avatars and/or signature on all boards that you are registered.
Show your support for the IHAD and express your opinion about clones.
 
That crap car, do you think people will pay the same money for BMW for that car? do you think the car is as comfortable/safe/reliable as BMW. No.....

China do not have the ability to produce BMW mate.... They only produce cheap car...


BMW Clone: http://www.flickr.com/photos/architektur/1360575760/

Smart Clone:
0,1020,952109,00.jpg


We are talking about cloning but they are nto 100% copies but still the billions Car Makers invest developing a porduct or technologie and someone just copies it ...
 
That crap car, do you think people will pay the same money for BMW for that car? do you think the car is as comfortable/safe/reliable as BMW. No.....

China do not have the ability to produce BMW mate.... They only produce cheap car...

They produce cheaper cars,that are far more reliable than any german car and they are probably beter engineered,but thats another argument.Those cars were produced for the asia market,im sure they are wll aware that westerners wouldnt touch them.
 
My last post here... Comment out of another Forum.. Use Google to translate:

I trust my hex editor more than the words of killer virus coders.
Btw my native language is german and I don't need any translation.
 
I was kind of hoping me and pt-1 would get so tense we would kiss. :)

Shame.
 
Really, first time hear this.... but difficult to believe..

They produce cheaper cars,that are far more reliable than any german car and they are probably beter engineered,but thats another argument.Those cars were produced for the asia market,im sure they are wll aware that westerners wouldnt touch them.
 
Can someone show me the patent for DMM owning exclusively the bootloader?:)
 
just noticed, this site advertisers sellers of fake boxes lol
 
page 101-103 of the manual in with an original 500 m8

That confuses me as its a "GNU General Public License" which as I read it guarantees the right to use, change, redistribute etc.

Which reallys goes against what they done.

Jon
 
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