Clone boxes destroyed by gemini

[JonMMM]

How ever you look at it DMM design their products with the hacker in mind, it has already been stated that they support the gemini team who produce images for this purpose.

But this is irelivent to the thread the question is should DMM put in the Time Bomb.

The way I see it is that if VM brought out Nagra 3 and are boxes stopped working we would say fair enough it was good while it lasted and some would try working out a new solution.

Basically you buy your box and you take you chance.

Same goes for buying a clone its cheaper but its a chance.

 

[mozr]

1: DMM Develops the Hardware and the software and both is copied/stolen by the Clone manufaturers.

So because the intellectual copyright being breached are inclusive of both hardware and software design then no meaningful comparison can be drawn with the largest proprietary developer in the world? That is like saying chocolate is brown because men wear boxer shorts; it has no logical foundation.

The fact is that even though M$ are known for there underhand tactics they still do not cripple XP installations to the point that people cannot remove there files for example.

2: I am not talking about copy protection, BskyB has a monolpoly in the UK and tries to enlarge this into the rest of europe etc.

I hate to do this but

Also with the 8000 they had to go DVI has HDMI put's all sorts of restrictions on to them especially by People like BskyB (Murdoch) with their supid Copy Protection etc.

So it is wrong for Sky to force you to use their hardware to watch TV, but ok for DMM to not only force people to use their hardware to run Gemini, but actually intentionally break hardware which people have bought?

And don't rehearse the 'its their software so they can do what they want' argument, because Sky can equally say 'its our encrypted content and I can make you watch it how we want.'

I am not talking about stealing Sky TV, I am talking about a legal way to watch the TV Programs I do pay for with the Hardware I want to use and not the Hardware that I have to use

People want to use hardware they choose (including clones) to run Gemini but cannot because of copy protection. Go figure.

 

[trackermut]

just 1 further point for now,,, Everyone going on about just avoiding Gemini images.. If it is indeed official driver then they will force it into cvs, and then all images will be same unless the developer teams bow to the cloners and deliberately use old head.ko
But there will be more to come,, dont let anyone kid themselves., emu writers, main image teams, and everyone with any respect in the bigger dev world wants 1 thing, and 1 things only,, to kill the clone...

so what do you think will happen , will the clone manufactures break free with new cvs, dont think there will be many peeps working on solutions cant think of one team that would cut there own throats with DM so will the uk stick to older images in the long run this is a major nail in the cloners coffin. next step the big emu teams will follow suite they are of course again kept very very close to dream ( 8000 not on market but images and emus all on download sites ) nagra 2 bites with no support what then ?.

 

[neathdrew]

just 1 further point for now,,, Everyone going on about just avoiding gemini images.. If it is inded official driver then they will force it into cvs, and then all images will be same unless the developer teams bow to the cloners and delibratly use old head.ko
But there will be more to come,, dont let anyone kid themselves., emu writers, main image teams, and everyone with any respect in the bigger dev world wants 1 thing, and 1 things only,, to kill the clone...

help!!! it's attack of the killer clone...... everything is always copied the skill is keeping 1 step ahead.....

 

[trackermut]

help!!! it's attack of the killer clone...... everything is always copied the skill is keeping 1 step ahead.....

And that is what Dream has done.

 

[jamesyboyjim]

one thing thats annoying though is people selling clones and advertising them as the real deal. i paid just over 80 quid for my dreambox not so long ago, i was told it was an official box but apon reading various threads im not so sure it is now

these are the people (if its possible) that dream should be targetting

 

[redhound]

Hello ? Wakeup time !!

England is no longer the center of the world ! There are other counrtys over in the Old Europe were Sat & Cable TV is not monopolized and therefore legimit Customers buy Receivers to actually watch FTA (FreeToAir) TV of their countrys equilent to BBC here in the UK.

Many PrivateTV Stations are Free via Sat too

So just because it seems like the nations favorite sport to steel or get something for free or cheaper there are other countrys out there in europe or the rest of the world were someone actually pays for a Product without using it for something illegal (I know it must come as a suprise for many of you!!!).

And isnt't the Eurovox also a clone of the DMM Hardware just in another box ?

i agree that this country is overtied with stupidity and the way things are done is to tied up with a provider and a profit,as for this old europe rubbish which here in the uk yes we are european also just not mainland european,free channels are available here to programs like true movies are very good and no doubt many mainland europeans are enjoying channels like the bbc for free.piracy in pay tv has always been a problem for providers all over europe and germany has played its part in this over the years also,all mainland european broadcasters would not tolorate this rate of piracy for its services and seem to have to change every five minutes and look just as foolish.

 

[trackermut]

one thing thats annoying though is people selling clones and advertising them as the real deal. i paid just over 80 quid for my dreambox not so long ago, i was told it was an official box but upon reading various threads im not so sure it is now

these are the people (if its possible) that dream should be targeting

I dont think you realise this, but thats EXACTLY what there doing.. Hence the 'tongue in cheek' comment please see your dealer thats appearing on many eagle box, envision box users screens.
I am also told, despite what ive read in 1 post here, but from a very reliable source Jtag is not the answer for these boxes, and Dream stated on site, if you think your box is genuine you should open a ticket on there site and they will see to it. Why do you think this is?? Coz its slowly but surly letting them catch these clone dealers out.
Also how many irate customers will be trying to get in touch with your lovely local clone dealer, what can he do? how can he explain himself? eventually bringing them wide into the open and very liable to be tracked down...

So if you have a clone you should be upset with the seller , not the original manufacturer whom isn't to blame.

 

[ruprect]

I caluculated 250 because it it quite obvious they are making them for nothing in china and even charging 250 are making well over 100% profit.

There are prices and wages being thrown around. I just wondered if people had actually investigated production costs, development etc.

I work desigining machines and deal with Chinese companies on a daily basis. One of our machines was copied in China by another company, not a manufacturing company, more like an agent. The machine they produced was illegal, uncertified parts, and the wiring was too thin to pass actual legal standards. We had a patent and threatened legal action, they agreed to sell one batch and stop importing/making them. Months of development went into that machines. Artwork, testing, external design work, development costs thousands, this is spread over the cost of the machines. You have to calculate the expected lifespan of the machine, and the units expected to be sold. In the case of electronics things go obsolete very quickly, so a large cost of the machine will be the development, it can be far more than the components used.

Now the factory we do deal with one day just sent us a machine (different from the one I already mentioned). This used 5 components we used, combinations of metal and plastic. Thing is we paid for tooling for these components, at huge cost, the company got use of these basically for free, they had the tools in their factory, while we owned the intellectual rights.

There is very little you can do, all we asked was that they do not sell the machine in europe, it has not appeared yet. Another Indian company again copied a plastic/metal component, we had paid design costs, moudling, tooling etc. All they pay is raw material.

Many are just blind to the real costs involved with products. How can software companies charge €10,000 for a dvd that cost 50cent to make.

Some clones could well be the real thing, off the same assembly line, just like the chinese company is making replicas of ours. DMM could have paid all the tooling costs, paid for the assembly line, paid for workers training, went out to audit and iron out problems, supplied test equipment and implemented manufacturing and test procedures,robotics, organised supply chains, designed boxing, packaging. This all costs a fortune, I have done it myself. Then the company can say they can only output 500 per week, and just have workers work late and bang out copies using all the equipment already supplied to them.

They could well go and buy substandard components to use in these fakes, but use DMMs test equipment. That is how a clone can be picked up so cheap.

If you really think they have a monopoly and do not deserve to make 100% more than the component cost, them why not have a go setting up your own company making them.

Again, I think they are quite inexpensive for what they are. Compare like with like.

 

[pt-1]

@rubrect

Spot On !!!

I read and chat to some of the guys that develop software for DMM nearly every day and there are already 8000's out there in the field being tested.

To bring the Argument about BslyB back,

the fact is that all big major TV and Movie Companies put pressure on Manufacturers of any digital eqipment to ensure that the Encrypted Stream is 100% digital and untouched and there is no way for anybody to hop onto any communication between the HDMI Bus on a DVB Box and re-stream it to any other source.

DMM cannot guarantee this thx to the scene out there and therefore instead of riscing a rather large fine or even their suppliers not selling them the needed Chips choose the way to go DVI as less restrictions exist on this digital connection.

The PayTV scene for example in Germany has maybe 2 Million susbcribers and this is a very low number compared to the UK.

But in Germany we always had a open analog and then digital cable Network and also our 1st analog and then digital Sat Network.

I receive around 100 Free To Air Channels legally without paying any kind of a subscription and I can walk into any Homeba$e etc. in Germany and choose from a wide range of Sat Equipment or go to the equilent of Curr1$ and buy a digital Cable or Sat Receiver and even have a choice of HD Kit there.

 

[frenchman]

Personally I don't like fake goods of any kind, and even worse are the people that sell fakes, they are just in it to make some quick cash and don't really care about much else.

I am happy that dream are making steps to combat this problem because from my way of thinking if they don't stop these copies being sold, then maybe they will stop developing future products and we will all miss out.

I do think that dream are somewhat to blame themselves mind, if they were to lower the price of their products a little it would ease the situation for them, after all if a genuine product is only £20 or £30 more than a fake what would you buy, the one with a real warranty and brought from a genuine business seller, or the dodgy ebay guy that will vanish as soon as a problem pops up?

It is a little funny about the eagle box, how embarrassing is it to have to tell people that they can't use the Gemini image, or many of the new images coming out because it may render the box useless, because it's really a fake dreambox no matter what they call it lol. At least if you buy a known fake then you know the risk!

Frenchman

 

[dctyper]

surely if you purchased a box that you thought was legit and used it to be fta channels, you are not doing any thing wrong as it is your right to find a unit that suits your needs at an afordable cost. but some one creates a software package to delibritly cause harm to your equipment, that my friends is wrong. shame on those responsible

 

[frenchman]

surely if you purchased a box that you thought was legit and used it to be fta channels, you are not doing any thing wrong as it is your right to find a unit that suits your needs at an afordable cost. but some one creates a software package to delibritly cause harm to your equipment, that my friends is wrong. shame on those responsible

Then the responsibility is with the company or person you purchased it from for selling dodgy goods, and they should be made to refund the purchase price of the box.

After all this new software works ok on genuine boxes so the problem is really with the fake box and not the software.

Frenchman

 

[mozr]

Then the responsibility is with the company or person you purchased it from for selling dodgy goods, and they should be made to refund the purchase price of the box.

After all this new software works ok on genuine boxes so the problem is really with the fake box and not the software.

Frenchman

I don't have any problem with DMM protecting copyright in general, just how they are doing it in this case.

However, the fact that the pro-clone breakers out there refuse to concede the insidiousness of actually trying to break hardware, not by mistake, as flashing images/firmware can do, but to actually go out of there way to write code that breaks the bootloader. As I have said, the Gemini team first did the reasonable thing, and stopped images from working on clone boxes (completely different than breaking bootloaders). This was bypassed, and modified images were released. They got annoyed, and took a step to far.

Indeed analoguesat on techwatch makes reference to the fact that genuine dreamboxes have been affected, and owners will have to raise a 'ticket' to get their problem resolved.

Great customer support. Break a working box, and have to wait for it to be shipped to Germany, jtagged and sent back.

 

[dctyper]

Then the responsibility is with the company or person you purchased it from for selling dodgy goods, and they should be made to refund the purchase price of the box.

After all this new software works ok on genuine boxes so the problem is really with the fake box and not the software.

Frenchman

would you take responsability if you sold me a box? its unfair treatment to would be honest viewers

 

[dctyper]

for arguments sake, i have a genuine box(aint i lucky)

 

[trackermut]

would you take responsability if you sold me a box? its unfair treatment to would be honest viewers

Thats what hes trying to say,,,,, if your dealer refusing you a refund, why should DMM re-compensate you for some dealer who makes the cash but refuses to support.
and as for the offer from DMM to fix original boxes,,, Lets see how many Originals are affected.
This is there way to find the people who THINK there box is genuine, when it really isnt,
backing up my post last night

 

[dctyper]

im going to take this as a good advertisement for digital worlds and its fantastic image and support

 

[laopai007]

just wonder, why DMM still produce boxes in China. Consider the lose costed by clone and the money spend on fighting back. It is enough to support then make them in EU or easten EU.

 

[mozr]

I may be wrong, but this is an interesting theory.

DMM want greatest profit so go to China for production, rather than EU.

Chinese dodgy entrepreneurs then buy copies of tools/designs from company contracted to DMM.

DMM get bit on the arse, and throw dummy out of the pram.