Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'

[mozr]

Thing is though, should we make that choice again - we going to end up with another decade of war in the middle east?

Difficult. But that is the point. Going to war is not an easy black and white childish question. History perceives leaders who go to war to fight for freedom as great men. i think it is part of our DNA.

The Iran question is again difficult. But should we allow Iran to play the 'yes I am, no i'm not' game with the UN like Saddam did, regarding WMDs? We no Iran have nuclear ambitions, coupled with an ambition to destroy Israel.

I just hope Mossad have spies in the right place to give the nod before Iran get too far. The CIA are inept at the moment.

 

[allroad]

As I said back up your statement with facts, there is no conclusive evidence to proove this and as its already been mentioned before. Israel aint allowing media through for an eye witness account. I wonder why....?

lets see if hamas troops are fighting on the streets facing up to the israili troops or hiding in the houses etc shoting and running like true terrorists do

 

[Bronto]

As I said back up your statement with facts, there is no conclusive evidence to proove this and as its already been mentioned before. Israel aint allowing media through for an eye witness account. I wonder why....?

Photographic evidence of rockets being launched amid Gaza Homes

 

[karym6]

It is common knowledge and has been for years and you know it, can you disprove it ? I don't think so, do you think Israel would target these populated places just for the fun of it ? they deem them legitimate Targets and quite rightly so

Sorry, what has been common knowledge? That Hamas hides its weapons and fires its weapons from civillian locations for years? What would be the point? The rockets they are using are highly portable and actually quite small - google for Qassam rockets. Its only recently that they didnt need to be fired from the border itself. So I am wondering, based on the type of weapons they are using and their respective ranges, why would they need to be hidden in innocent targets like this?

The only slight problem I have with this is - if they are firing from there, does this make it ok for the Israelis to attack them with indirect fire? The Israeli army is far more advanced as is the air force. Is it impossible for them to destroy these weapons caches with guided weapons of their own? Or could it be possible for Israeli special forces to destroy them with conventional weapons? Or could it be, that due to the fact the weapons are so portable, they are not staying in one place for very long?

 

[Bronto]

^^ see link above ^^

 

[mobad]

Photographic evidence of rockets being launched amid Gaza Homes

show me a neutral source.
IMFA in my eyes is a very bias source.

 

[karym6]

Photographic evidence of rockets being launched amid Gaza Homes

Just to point out, before anyone visits this link - its from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs.

Anyone remember the speeches the US were giving about WMD's in Iraq? Complete with nice graphics showing how they were being made and transported?

 

[Bronto]

Also have a look at the video clips in the link .. fucking coward scum getting children to shield the house of Abu al-Hatal

 

[karym6]

Difficult. But that is the point. Going to war is not an easy black and white childish question. History perceives leaders who go to war to fight for freedom as great men. i think it is part of our DNA.

The Iran question is again difficult. But should we allow Iran to play the 'yes I am, no i'm not' game with the UN like Saddam did, regarding WMDs? We no Iran have nuclear ambitions, coupled with an ambition to destroy Israel.

I just hope Mossad have spies in the right place to give the nod before Iran get too far. The CIA are inept at the moment.

So why are we not doing something about them now? If I recall correctly, they had rockets and missiles that can reach Europe over a year ago - this means we are under threat now - and have been for a while, surely?

 

[mozr]

It depends how you see it Karym doesn't it?

I think it would not be beyond the realms of possibility for Hamas to hide amongst the civilian population.

The primary aim would be for cover. A secondary aim would be the knowledge that when Israel try to bomb the military targets innocents die, thus creating a feeling of goodwill towards the palestinians, and a feeling of antipathy toward Israel throughout the world.

Iraqi forces employed the same tactic.

Hamas forces would be annihilated on a field of battle, they know this. So they employ tactics that are best suited to their position.

I agree upon your wish for unpartisan reporting. I do not think the Israeli ministy for foreign affairs is an unbiased source when trying to find the truth here.

:EDIT: in response to

Sorry, what has been common knowledge? That Hamas hides its weapons and fires its weapons from civillian locations for years? What would be the point? The rockets they are using are highly portable and actually quite small - google for Qassam rockets. Its only recently that they didnt need to be fired from the border itself. So I am wondering, based on the type of weapons they are using and their respective ranges, why would they need to be hidden in innocent targets like this?

The only slight problem I have with this is - if they are firing from there, does this make it ok for the Israelis to attack them with indirect fire? The Israeli army is far more advanced as is the air force. Is it impossible for them to destroy these weapons caches with guided weapons of their own? Or could it be possible for Israeli special forces to destroy them with conventional weapons? Or could it be, that due to the fact the weapons are so portable, they are not staying in one place for very long?

 

[Bronto]

Just to point out, before anyone visits this link - its from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign affairs.

Anyone remember the speeches the US were giving about WMD's in Iraq? Complete with nice graphics showing how they were being made and transported?

Are you saying the pictures and video in the link are fake ? where's your proof ?

 

[karym6]

Are you saying the pictures and video in the link are fake ? where's your proof ?

Umm, plainly not.

 

[mozr]

So why are we not doing something about them now? If I recall correctly, they had rockets and missiles that can reach Europe over a year ago - this means we are under threat now - and have been for a while, surely?

We are, by diplomatic means at the moment. This should be the first thing we should do in most circumstances. It was with that thug Saddam.

As we know it is very difficult to garner support for a pro active invasion of a country by ones own nation, never mind the world as a whole.

The Bush administration used 9/11 to invade Iraq. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. It is going to take a while though before the world will trust intelligence agencies again, enough to go to war against a country who is not actively invading another.

Iran will misstep.

 

[mozr]

I think Bronto, however much I agree with some of your statements, that using that link as evidence has it's problems?

 

[karym6]

We are, by diplomatic means at the moment. This should be the first thing we should do in most circumstances. It was with that thug Saddam.

As we know it is very difficult to garner support for a pro active invasion of a country by ones own nation, never mind the world as a whole.

The Bush administration used 9/11 to invade Iraq. I don't necessarily have a problem with that. It is going to take a while though before the world will trust intelligence agencies again, enough to go to war against a country who is not actively invading another.

Iran will misstep.

The US used WMD's to get into Iraq, they used 9/11 to get into Afghanistan.

Prior to the Gulf war, we were helping out Saddam, it was only when he got too big for his boots and decided Kuwait was part of Iraq did we get involved.

After that it was a war, an operation, sanctions and no fly zones followed by another war untill we got him where he deserved to be. I dont think anyone would say we should treat Iran this way.

Even if we impose sanctions on Iran, it wouldnt help much. They can trade elsewhere - like with Russia for instance. Plus the country is good enough shape right now, this is no crippled Iraq.

I would bargain that the only way to start a conflict with Iran would be to prove it has links with global terrorism...

 

[mozr]

The US used WMD's to get into Iraq, they used 9/11 to get into Afghanistan.

If 9/11 had not happened, would Iraq have fallen? I think not, but you are correct. My thinking is the regarding the chess move before checkmate.

Prior to the Gulf war, we were helping out Saddam, it was only when he got too big for his boots and decided Kuwait was part of Iraq did we get involved.

I agree. History gives us strange bed fellows. As I have already said, hindsight is 20/20. It was a means to an end. Should the west not have befriended Stalin during WW2 because he wasn't nice in the future?

After that it was a war, an operation, sanctions and no fly zones followed by another war untill we got him where he deserved to be. I dont think anyone would say we should treat Iran this way.

Even if we impose sanctions on Iran, it wouldnt help much. They can trade elsewhere - like with Russia for instance. Plus the country is good enough shape right now, this is no crippled Iraq.

Sanctions are the last refuge of diplomacy. In fact, it could be argued that sanctions occur when talking breaks down. So I don't follow your point. We are using diplomacy with Iran because it is the right thing to do for the west now. If the Iranian people can rise up and defeat the ridiculous godhead(s) at the top invasion will not be needed. This is the best course of action.

I would bargain that the only way to start a conflict with Iran would be to prove it has links with global terrorism...

You are probably right. But as I have said, the intelligence community hasn't the best rep at the moment.

It will be a while, or Iran will ahve to hold a smoking gun before it happens.

I think Global terrorism, and firm evidence of using (or wanting to use) nuclear material in missiles will be the turning point. if we ever get there.

Let's hope not.

:EDIT: I'm going out for a bike ride, my head hurts.

 

[Bronto]

I think Bronto, however much I agree with some of your statements, that using that link as evidence has it's problems?

OK appollogies perhaps this is a little less bias

Frontier India

 

[karym6]

If 9/11 had not happened, would Iraq have fallen? I think not, but you are correct. My thinking is the regarding the chess move before checkmate.



I agree. History gives us strange bed fellows. As I have already said, hindsight is 20/20. It was a means to an end. Should the west not have befriended Stalin during WW2 because he wasn't nice in the future?



Sanctions are the last refuge of diplomacy. In fact, it could be argued that sanctions occur when talking breaks down. So I don't follow your point. We are using diplomacy with Iran because it is the right thing to do for the west now. If the Iranian people can rise up and defeat the ridiculous godhead(s) at the top invasion will not be needed. This is the best course of action.



You are probably right. But as I have said, the intelligence community hasn't the best rep at the moment.

It will be a while, or Iran will ahve to hold a smoking gun before it happens.

I think Global terrorism, and firm evidence of using (or wanting to use) nuclear material in missiles will be the turning point. if we ever get there.

Let's hope not.

:EDIT: I'm going out for a bike ride, my head hurts.

The conspiracy theorist that I keep supressed within me has a slight suspicion that this operation in Gaza could be something designed to present the smoking gun. Either way, we would all be foolish to take this all on face value.

OK appollogies perhaps this is a little less bias

Frontier India

How are they less biased? It is taken from the same source you posted eariler.

 

[hybrid32]

Israel has evey right to root out the terrorists who are launching rockets onto innocent people and if this means that there is innocent palestinians dying then unfortunate as this is it is unavoidable and frankly HAMAS do not care who their own rockets hit as long as they hit jews.
Does anyone think Britain would not attack Ireland or France if they started launching missiles into our towns and cities.
As for Iran they would like Isreal wiped of the map and the last person to take such a view of the jewish people caused a little skirmish called WW 2

 

[JimmyP]

usual suspects usual arguments i see its a sad day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!