Israeli troops 'move into Gaza'

[mobad]

Who are really to blame? - Molten Lead - Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

 

[mozr]

Do you like Coke or Pepsi?

A few people have made this point in this thread. It is all very sad.

People pick sides based upon Religious, cultural, and historical allegiances. Truth is secondary for most people. It becomes a political game, where quotes, articles, statistics are fired at the opposing camp, trying to damage the opponents position.

Firstly, as Munkey noted, there was never a bygone age where everyone lived in harmony, and did so because of strict demarcated religious and cultural boundaries.

However, this does help. When you have a populace that has grown over generations they are less likely to be radical because of these roots. This is not to say that geography is all in this matter, but it can help.

I think we would all agree that displacement brings about anxiety. No? There has to be some culpability on the west (who first created the nations - see Iraq, Palestine, Israel, etc.) to help in trying to accomplish peace, as it could be argued that the juxtaposition between natural human boundaries based upon cultural traditions and the imposed structures by the west have created the displacement, which has escalated the trouble.

I agree with the idea of a Jewish state. For centuries they have been persecuted even before Christ, and the Holocaust was not the final solution, but the final straw. They needed a home.

Arguably (and I am moving closer to this every day), the place they found was not right. It is a placed based on conflict, far away from western friends. The problem was that the Zionists believed that the UN/US would easily be able to protect them, and let them put down roots. As we see, so many years later, this is not the case.

To the present problem. This is the equation.

Israel has a large army, Palestine does not. The Palestinians feel aggrieved at the very heavy handed approach Israel has used to defend it's citizenry. Palestine resort (just as the Jews did in Warsaw for example - I am not comparing WW2 with the present conflict however) to using terrorist tactics to attack it's perceived enemy.

This ends in it not being a traditional war. Both nations sanction the murder of the opposition civilian population. When things get this bad, it is very hard I feel to take sides based upon morality. Some people side (wrongly) with Palestine, because they use the moral calculation that Israel is Goliath, and Palestine is David. Some (also wrongly) blindly side with Israel, ignoring many mistakes they have made.

This sort of conciliation I propose, is what is needed if peace is to exist. Can it? I am not so sure. It is much bigger than these two nations.

I believe the Iraq war will help the conciliation. It may ultimately lead to a war with Iran. I know some people will hate this idea, and that is ok. But I see that Iran as the next threat to world peace, I really do. The Iranian government I believe want to establish a new Caliphate. They believe the west are Kaffir and in need of Islamic conversion or death.

We live in a nuclear age, and we cannot afford to ignore nations who want us dead.

Iran are aiding Hamas. When Hamas took power it was a great achievement for Iran, a foothold, just like Iraq, Israel, are a foothold for the west (including military bases in other Muslim states).

It comes down to a game of risk. If anybody thinks that if Israel stops using military force, and we pull out of Iraq things will be fine, you are not thinking in a nuanced way about how human beings, and ultimately the world, work.

Mistakes are made, tragedy occurs, and hindsight is 20/20.

As I said, it's all very sad.

I prefer lemonade.

 

[Bronto]

Glad to see Israel not targeting Civilians, especially women and children - LiveLeak.com - RAW (Graphic): Scene After IDF Attack In Gaza 1/1/09 (Video is not for the faint hearted)

While no one likes to see images like that or innocent people hurt it is inevitable that it's going to happen when cowardly terrorist scum like Hamas place their rocket launchers and military installations amongst it's own population and using them as human shields

Who are really to blame? - Molten Lead - Gush Shalom - Israeli Peace Bloc

Hostilities would not have lasted so long if the blame were only on one side.

 

[JimmyP]

perhaps political views should be banned from dw as it seems to always end in CONFLICT i wont be posting in this thread again as i choose to ignore it from now on as i see its going to blow up into a big argument!!!!

 

[karym6]

Do you like Coke or Pepsi?

A few people have made this point in this thread. It is all very sad.

People pick sides based upon Religious, cultural, and historical allegiances. Truth is secondary for most people. It becomes a political game, where quotes, articles, statistics are fired at the opposing camp, trying to damage the opponents position.

Firstly, as Munkey noted, there was never a bygone age where everyone lived in harmony, and did so because of strict demarcated religious and cultural boundaries.

However, this does help. When you have a populace that has grown over generations they are less likely to be radical because of these roots. This is not to say that geography is all in this matter, but it can help.

I think we would all agree that displacement brings about anxiety. No? There has to be some culpability on the west (who first created the nations - see Iraq, Palestine, Israel, etc.) to help in trying to accomplish peace, as it could be argued that the juxtaposition between natural human boundaries based upon cultural traditions and the imposed structures by the west have created the displacement, which has escalated the trouble.

I agree with the idea of a Jewish state. For centuries they have been persecuted even before Christ, and the Holocaust was not the final solution, but the final straw. They needed a home.

Arguably (and I am moving closer to this every day), the place they found was not right. It is a placed based on conflict, far away from western friends. The problem was that the Zionists believed that the UN/US would easily be able to protect them, and let them put down roots. As we see, so many years later, this is not the case.

To the present problem. This is the equation.

Israel has a large army, Palestine does not. The Palestinians feel aggrieved at the very heavy handed approach Israel has used to defend it's citizenry. Palestine resort (just as the Jews did in Warsaw for example - I am not comparing WW2 with the present conflict however) to using terrorist tactics to attack it's perceived enemy.

This ends in it not being a traditional war. Both nations sanction the murder of the opposition civilian population. When things get this bad, it is very hard I feel to take sides based upon morality. Some people side (wrongly) with Palestine, because they use the moral calculation that Israel is Goliath, and Palestine is David. Some (also wrongly) blindly side with Israel, ignoring many mistakes they have made.

This sort of conciliation I propose, is what is needed if peace is to exist. Can it? I am not so sure. It is much bigger than these two nations.

I believe the Iraq war will help the conciliation. It may ultimately lead to a war with Iran. I know some people will hate this idea, and that is ok. But I see that Iran as the next threat to world peace, I really do. The Iranian government I believe want to establish a new Caliphate. They believe the west are Kaffir and in need of Islamic conversion or death.

We live in a nuclear age, and we cannot afford to ignore nations who want us dead.

Iran are aiding Hamas. When Hamas took power it was a great achievement for Iran, a foothold, just like Iraq, Israel, are a foothold for the west (including military bases in other Muslim states).

It comes down to a game of risk. If anybody thinks that if Israel stops using military force, and we pull out of Iraq things will be fine, you are not thinking in a nuanced way about how human beings, and ultimately the world, work.

Mistakes are made, tragedy occurs, and hindsight is 20/20.

As I said, it's all very sad.

I prefer lemonade.

I agree with 99% of all you have mentioned here with the following exceptions;

I am not sure that Iran wants to form a Caliphate, if they do then they are keeping it very secret. Dont forget, the formation of a Caliphate is one of Al Qaida's main goals. For Iran to even ruminate over this would be unusual. Added to that the extremely diverse population of Iran itself and the relative equality that a muslim country allows women, I am not sure if the two things are compatible.

The second bit I have trouble with is Hamas. Yes, Iran has supported them and provided them with weapons and training. But, they did not put Hamas in power, they were democratically elected. This is going to be the sticking point for many governments looking at this problem, how can we come down against a democratically elected body and still keep a straight face. After all, we have been democratising parts of the middle east for almost 8 years now. The last elections for the PNA were monitored by us and other EU countries - we didnt note any signs of coercion etc.

Which makes the whole thing about Hamas getting into power even more tricky. Had Fatah got to power in the last elections, would Israel be attacking Gaza? Dont forget, it was Hamas who seized control of the Gaza Strip from Fatah and Israel are only attacking the Gaza Strip

 

[emarald]

While no one likes to see images like that or innocent people hurt it is inevitable that it's going to happen when cowardly terrorist scum like Hamas place their rocket launchers and military installations amongst it's own population and using them as human shields .

Well said,:Clap: plus it makes great propaganda for the Hamas terrorist

 

[Kruger]

perhaps political views should be banned from dw as it seems to always end in CONFLICT i wont be posting in this thread again as i choose to ignore it from now on as i see its going to blow up into a big argument!!!!

but then there goes the bastian of free speech and i think a pretty poor move on behave of DW if they did censor the forum.

way i see things every action creates a reaction. If hamas never started bombning then iserail would not react. If hamas would not launch from places of religeon and built up housing areas and schools then iserail would not hit them.

they are only going after the launch sites! I am led to belive aswell that the israill intelligence even call up the ppl on their mobile telling them to get out they are going to hit the launch site in their area.


Also people on here dont look at the isolated incident but project their political beliefes into the frey 1st!

example being a member on here with strong republican views always seems to favour the pallies probably due to the fact that the PLO helped arm the IRA.

so Iserail are only protecting it citizens by agressivly persuing the terrorists and quite rightly so in this case!

 

[gordy11]

The whole instability in the region was caused by the artificial creation of a Jewish state in Palestine by western powers. It's time for people to finally admit that creating a Jewish state in Palestine was a horrible mistake!

Jews, Christians and Muslims all lived peacefully together in Palestine...in "The Holy Land", until the above brought about the catastrophic change that today's headline news is the direct result of.

I agree with you and israel is still ignoring many united nations resolutions to leave palestine
and when israel tells the civillains to leave where can they go ???? into the sea.
i will also be praying for the palestinians.

 

[karym6]

... cowardly terrorist scum like Hamas place their rocket launchers and military installations amongst it's own population and using them as human shields...

Given that Israel isnt allowing foreign reporters into the Gaza Strip right now, where did you come by this information? As Israel is controlling the flow of information from there right now, you would have thought they would have made a big deal about this, no?

 

[emarald]

Given that Israel isnt allowing foreign reporters into the Gaza Strip right now, where did you come by this information? As Israel is controlling the flow of information from there right now, you would have thought they would have made a big deal about this, no?

Once again you are WRONG Hamas are cowards.

Hiding behind civilians, this seems to be a common tactic in the Arab world.

Fire your guns and rockets from a building with kids in it and claim anything you hit as a victory. When the building gets attacked, parade the bodies of the dead kids around for the media and say it's evidence of the other side being bloodthirsty killers.
Get real karym6.

 

[mozr]

I am not sure that Iran wants to form a Caliphate, if they do then they are keeping it very secret. Dont forget, the formation of a Caliphate is one of Al Qaida's main goals.

They have never explicitly stated it, you are correct. However, with their denouncement of western values, and the wish to annihilate Israel, including their own nuclear ambitions, I see it like a chess game a few moves down the board.

Also to that, there are many people who believe that Iran have close ties to Al-Qaeda, the 9/11 commission being one such group.

For Iran to even ruminate over this would be unusual. Added to that the extremely diverse population of Iran itself and the relative equality that a muslim country allows women, I am not sure if the two things are compatible.

Correct again. Iran is a diverse nation, and there is constant tug of war between the progressives and the Muslim establishment. The government and religious leaders are the trouble.

The second bit I have trouble with is Hamas. Yes, Iran has supported them and provided them with weapons and training. But, they did not put Hamas in power, they were democratically elected. This is going to be the sticking point for many governments looking at this problem, how can we come down against a democratically elected body and still keep a straight face. After all, we have been democratising parts of the middle east for almost 8 years now. The last elections for the PNA were monitored by us and other EU countries - we didnt note any signs of coercion etc.

Which makes the whole thing about Hamas getting into power even more tricky. Had Fatah got to power in the last elections, would Israel be attacking Gaza? Dont forget, it was Hamas who seized control of the Gaza Strip from Fatah and Israel are only attacking the Gaza Strip

I agree with the distinction, that is, that the Palestinian people actively voted for a terrorist government. The point is is that Iran is the puppet master, too clever now to send bombs from their own country. If Iran attacked Israel, as they would liked to do, the west would crush them. So they use Palestine as a proxy.

Regarding democracy. The west sells democracy as the gold standard, but only on its terms. If Iraq voted for Al-Qaeda to lead them the US would not allow it. I don't even mind this. If a democratically elected government is going to cause more problems then is it not the duty of someone who can see what evil will occur to stop it, for the greater good? (assuming we believe that western secular morality is 'good', which I do.)

Palestine and Hamas do not see themselves that they actually make it easier for Israel to use military force against them. Iran see them as expendable.

 

[mozr]

As a seperate post, regarding innocents dying. It is war.

But can we make a moral distinction here?

Is there a difference in trying to attack military targets and just mindlessly trying to kill anyone?

I believe Israel are trying to do the former, and the collateral damage that is occurring is abhorrent, but then again, so is war. As I think Bronto mentioned, do Hamas not have some culpability in the collateral damage by hiding near those they suppose to protect?

Hamas, seem to be adopting terrorist 101 teaching: to try and cause as much chaos as possible by attacking the innocent.

Well it's working.

 

[mobad]

Once again you are WRONG Hamas are cowards.

Hiding behind civilians, this seems to be a common tactic in the Arab world.

Fire your guns and rockets from a building with kids in it and claim anything you hit as a victory. When the building gets attacked, parade the bodies of the dead kids around for the media and say it's evidence of the other side being bloodthirsty killers.
Get real karym6.

Back your statement up with evidence.
Even if your statement was correct, Is massacares justified for this?
Are Hostels, refugee camps, religious places of worship and homes an acceptable target?

 

[mozr]

Is massacares justified for this?
Are Hostels, refugee camps, religious places of worship and homes an acceptable target?

Not that I am backing up emarald at all (he is very one sided), but are you referring to Hamas or the Israelis here?

As I think your question could be better applied to Hamas.

 

[karym6]

They have never explicitly stated it, you are correct. However, with their denouncement of western values, and the wish to annihilate Israel, including their own nuclear ambitions, I see it like a chess game a few moves down the board.

Also to that, there are many people who believe that Iran have close ties to Al-Qaeda, the 9/11 commission being one such group.



Correct again. Iran is a diverse nation, and there is constant tug of war between the progressives and the Muslim establishment. The government and religious leaders are the trouble.



I agree with the distinction, that is, that the Palestinian people actively voted for a terrorist government. The point is is that Iran is the puppet master, too clever now to send bombs from their own country. If Iran attacked Israel, as they would liked to do, the west would crush them. So they use Palestine as a proxy.

Regarding democracy. The west sells democracy as the gold standard, but only on its terms. If Iraq voted for Al-Qaeda to lead them the US would not allow it. I don't even mind this. If a democratically elected government is going to cause more problems then is it not the duty of someone who can see what evil will occur to stop it, for the greater good? (assuming we believe that western secular morality is 'good', which I do.)

Palestine and Hamas do not see themselves that they actually make it easier for Israel to use military force against them. Iran see them as expendable.

Thing is though, should we make that choice again - we going to end up with another decade of war in the middle east? Do we want to? Iran would be no push over, and if they do have their fingers in so many terrorist organistations, do we want them activating all their links? Did we make a mistake going for Iraq in the first place, should we have made the case for Iran instead?

Hamas should have never gotten into power, plain and simple. I think the majority of the world had been bargaining on Fatah winning and had decided that they were the people to work with (ignoring the fact that Fatah had been a terrorist organistion untill the 90's). I think Israel may well feel the same way, after all its Gaza they are hitting and not the West Bank.

I fear that we make so much noise about democracy etc that it will cloud the point on Hamas being in power. The governments involved will know what is going on, but the people on the street will see it either as a democratically elected body or terrorists being wiped out. Both of which are very important topics for us in this day and age.

 

[allroad]

Back your statement up with evidence.
Even if your statement was correct, Is massacares justified for this?
Are Hostels, refugee camps, religious places of worship and homes an acceptable target?

yes they are when hamas fires rockets from those places

tbh they are fecking cowards shot and run then hide in these places

 

[Bronto]

Given that Israel isnt allowing foreign reporters into the Gaza Strip right now, where did you come by this information? As Israel is controlling the flow of information from there right now, you would have thought they would have made a big deal about this, no?

It is common knowledge and has been for years and you know it, can you disprove it ? I don't think so, do you think Israel would target these populated places just for the fun of it ? they deem them legitimate Targets and quite rightly so

 

[mobad]

Not that I am backing up emarald at all (he is very one sided), but are you referring to Hamas or the Israelis here?

As I think your question could be better applied to Hamas.

I ain't gonna get too carried away with this debate but just look around the world today and on most news channels. If Hamas was the real terrorists why isn't the majority of the public/media againt them, is the human race that ignorant?

Regardless my main point being there is no way of justifying the reaction of the Israeli Government!

 

[mobad]

yes they are when hamas fires rockets from those places

tbh they are fecking cowards shot and run then hide in these places

As I said back up your statement with facts, there is no conclusive evidence to proove this and as its already been mentioned before. Israel aint allowing media through for an eye witness account. I wonder why....?

 

[karym6]

Back your statement up with evidence.
Even if your statement was correct, Is massacares justified for this?
Are Hostels, refugee camps, religious places of worship and homes an acceptable target?

Not that I am backing up emarald at all (he is very one sided), but are you referring to Hamas or the Israelis here?

As I think your question could be better applied to Hamas.

I think the point he may be trying to make is this:

It isnt right for Hamas to attack innocent targets. So, by that logic it is not right for Israel to attack innocent targets.

Catch 22, with out doing what the other is doing neither side can gain any ground. However, this is a massive professional army fighting an entrenched terrorist group, both are going to have to adapt quickly. As Hamas are elected, hiding their ordanance around civillians is retarded - they are blowing up their own electorate.

Personally, I would like to see some impartial reporting on this before we all say its Hamas hiding civillians around rockets causing the problems...