Home Audio Visual Distribution, Automation n Control

[Munkey]

RS232 control Is a big step up from IR, You get 2 way control which can improve the look of your GUI as you can check the state of equipment and display the info on the GUI. Help is always available

Choose a New bit of kit that has IP Control, That's the future as I see it.

I suppose you're right, I will have this setup for the next ten years and if IP is the future I really should look at installing an IP system. No point in installing old tech, as support does tend to wane very quickly with all things electronic. There is something about AMX and Crestron that really pulls me to them, I hope their IP solutions are not overtly costly.

AMX and Crestron Work in the Same way You require a Matched Control Processor n Touch Panel, This means they have to be looked @ as a pair. Pain as IMHO Crestron Best Processor, But AMX Best Touchpanel! LOL 8X is Stunnin, but so's the Price.

Well at least you let me dream for one night. I went to bed thinking 'I'm gonna have a system on par with George Lucas' :CRYBABY: I'm still going to spend the weekend trawling the internet to see if scroogebags can get himself a pro AV control system on a beer budget, I doubt I can but worth a look regardless.

you've seen you can create an Interface that runs on windows including pda'a, that's not just a pretty demo it can be used to control said bit of kit. You could control your whole home from Work! I have remotely controlled disagnosed systems and uploaded new programs over the net! You are looking @ Crestron Processors with e-Control, mc2e, cp2e, AV2(check for e-Control as its an addon module), Pro2 (AV2+ Front Display e-Control included). These differ in the amount of IR Serial I/O ports etc. But this box of trickes will send control signals to almost anything, Lights, IP Cameras, Screens, Drapes as well as all AV equipment!

You need to document how each piece of kit is controlable to work out how your gonna get control from a single box and therefore what box you really need. The AV2 n Pro2 are great as you can add ports via a plugin card, but this is reflected in the price. mc2e,cp2e can act as slaves so you could have both or 2 the same connected.

Right phase 2, document how each piece of equipment can be controlled. I'll get cracking on this.

Thanks for that info, that's exactly what I have been looking for. Half of the problem when buying older gear is not knowing what to look for, you've set me on my path, now I can research the products mentioned.

I've got numerous spare cables in my walls and under the floors, is there anything in particular (cable wise) that I should definitely install, once I lay those floor boards I never ever want to pull them back up again.

Currently I have plenty of the following

CAT5e
Coaxial
Component
HDMI
Speaker cable

I guess most of the cables will become redundant with the pace of change in technology, but I do prefer as much equipment to be hardwired if possible. I just can't help but think that I'm a few cables too short.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate advice from an industry pro. :Cheers:

 

[Hejira]

I suppose you're right, I will have this setup for the next ten years and if IP is the future I really should look at installing an IP system.

This is an article from 2004:
A/V control systems – IP control – Sound & Video Contractor magazine – technology showcase – systems integration - video

No point in installing old tech, as support does tend to wane very quickly with all things electronic.

Yes but being able to incorperate older tech will keep costs down n older pro gear will prob have what you require because it was cutting edge @ the time.

There is something about AMX and Crestron that really pulls me to them, I hope their IP solutions are not overtly costly.

I know I'm repeating myself but AMX n Crestron are TopEnd, They are costly, 2 way Touch Panels in particular and thats what you want for the best total control experience. That's without a good programmer!

That dosn't mean you give up on it being DIY possible as I've explained with a Crestron Processor with e-control. AMX do Have IP control to there Processors but I have not come across a Xpanel equivalent, so creating a web interface is likely to be more involved, which is what makes the Crestron so appealing to me. Look @ the AMX NI-2000 it's been replaced with 2100 but that would be the Crestron mc2e equivalent I think.

Well at least you let me dream for one night. I went to bed thinking 'I'm gonna have a system on par with George Lucas' I'm still going to spend the weekend trawling the internet to see if scroogebags can get himself a pro AV control system on a beer budget, I doubt I can but worth a look regardless.

I promise I'm trying as best I can to keep the dream alive, LOL, I just don't want to give you the wrong impression of the time n costs involved.

Right phase 2, document how each piece of equipment can be controlled. I'll get cracking on this.

Thanks for that info, that's exactly what I have been looking for. Half of the problem when buying older gear is not knowing what to look for, you've set me on my path, now I can research the products mentioned.

The Control Processor @ the centre of your system is what will make or break your control IMHO and that should be the biggest decision. The Touch Panels are the Gloss n the Cost!

I've got numerous spare cables in my walls and under the floors, is there anything in particular (cable wise) that I should definitely install, once I lay those floor boards I never ever want to pull them back up again.

Currently I have plenty of the following

CAT5e
Coaxial
Component
HDMI
Speaker cable

Perfect, Only Cat6 n Fibre really missing! I can't see you needing them in the home for near future though.

Do your runs include locations for wired touchpanels?

I guess most of the cables will become redundant with the pace of change in technology, but I do prefer as much equipment to be hardwired if possible. I just can't help but think that I'm a few cables too short.

I Totally agree with being hardwired. My answer to this is dispite how fast tech has moved on look at how that same bit of copper cable has been adapted to handle countless more applications, Cat5 is such a great example or the telcoms network I remember it being said you'll never get a faster internet connection over copper than 56k!.

Thanks for your help, I really appreciate advice from an industry pro.

Nice of you to say, but a bit strong semi-pro maybe! LOL

 

[Hejira]

jeezaz christ Im going back on the drink Im scared to look at this stuff I might get ideas about upgrading my scart leads

Safest place m8. LOL Don't open that can o worms.

I think most here have the same opinion!

 

[Hejira]

@Munkey I hope I haven't scared you off! LOL

I'm looking at a software control system @ the mo which is along the mainlobby lines, It's just been updated n looks interesting called StarDraw Control:
Stardraw.com - System Design Software / Control Software

Here's an example of their control system in practice.
View attachment 50524

 

[Munkey]

Nice of you to say, but a bit strong semi-pro maybe! LOL

Eh? I thought I was semi-pro...

@Munkey I hope I haven't scared you off! LOL

I'm looking at a software control system @ the mo which is along the mainlobby lines, It's just been updated n looks interesting called StarDraw Control:
Stardraw.com - System Design Software / Control Software

Here's an example of their control system in practice.
View attachment 50524

Scared me off, no chance. Did you frighten me a little, yes, with the second hand prices of high end gear. I'm not in a position to spend over a K on automating my AV experience. 10 years ago I would have had I been aware such devices existed, but right now the old man must make some personal sacrifices so that the kids can buy nicer things. Damn kids.

Which brings me back to a network solution utilising tablets, pda's and other touch screens. So far we have,

Cinemar Solutions - Mainlobby
Proxmis software - Girder
EventGhost
Stardraw

All aside from Stardraw seem to be reasonably mature platforms with good community support.

Anything else I can add to my reading list?

The max I'm willing to spend is £200 on the main remote for the HT, 150 for a second roaming remote and a £200 on a fixed touch screen for the kitchen, plus a few hundred on software. Something in the region of £700 all in.

I thinks it's time to have a sniff around some of their forums to see what people are complaining about.

:Cheers:

 

[Hejira]

Eh? I thought I was semi-pro...

Unfortunately I don't get to work with AV Control Day in Day Out, and the work I do is generally smaller setups or amending existing systems when the relationship with the existing Installer has broken down, I woz pretty much self taught by trouble shooting problems on both AMX and Crestron, I have been to Crestron for some advanced training and When you see the setups n some of those guys wiz around the software your talking pro's.

Scared me off, no chance.

Glad to here, I'm looking forward to sharing the journey.

Did you frighten me a little, yes, with the second hand prices of high end gear. I'm not in a position to spend over a K on automating my AV experience.

I've prob been a bit biased to Crestron because I'm lucky enough to have a processor n touch panel, but it's the best solution IMHO and experience.

I did see the processor I have on ebay for $450 n figured if you already have windows based pda, netbook or tabletPC use an Xpanel and this is a very cheap fully functional Crestron System.

The reality is it still expensive, has to be programmed, software is not readily available if you are not a dealer or installer.

10 years ago I would have had I been aware such devices existed, but right now the old man must make some personal sacrifices so that the kids can buy nicer things. Damn kids.

Dam Kids but Great Dad, Fair Play got ya priorities right.

Which brings me back to a network solution utilising tablets, pda's and other touch screens.

This I would love to get right on a budget n offer as an installation service as so many people love the toys not the cost.

All aside from Stardraw seem to be reasonably mature platforms with good community support.

Stardraw is a Pro Product aimed @ installers, is quite a straight forward interface with many prebuilt modules along the AMX Crestron example saving time programming the system, but not community based.

The max I'm willing to spend is £200 on the main remote for the HT, 150 for a second roaming remote and a £200 on a fixed touch screen for the kitchen, plus a few hundred on software. Something in the region of £700 all in.

Hardware will still be software dependant and You make no mention of a PC that will act as your central control processor, This will run 24/7 and needs some consideration.

I'm interested what ideas for remotes you come up with for that money!

I had the idea for a fixed remote of using an old 15" flat panel with this:
15" Touch Panel Kit for Interactive PC Display | Virtual Village - UK

 

[Munkey]

Yep the server is a great place to start. Energy consumption is an issue for me so I'm thinking that I'll choose a fairly conservative processor like an old C2D which will be powerful enough to play 1080p content linked directly to my HT via HDMI.

In fact I think I'll draw this out as it will be easier to digest, time for updated diagrams me thinks. The server may need to handle a bit more than just media playback, possibly a CCTV card amongst other things.

 

[Hejira]

Yep the server is a great place to start. Energy consumption is an issue for me so I'm thinking that I'll choose a fairly conservative processor like an old C2D which will be powerful enough to play 1080p content linked directly to my HT via HDMI.

I'm playing devils advicated here BUT is this a server or HTPC?
IMHO every modern home should have a seperate File Server (or at least one location for all files for all to share maybe NAS Drive for example) MiniItX low power MB's are great as a home server or NAS. For HTPC I've been looking @ the MiniITX ION boards with nvidia graphics, I have seen good compatibility reports with XBMC n 1080p HDMI (I still luv n use my old eggbox with XBMC). The other thing is there are HD network media players now for peanuts, Low Power, Got a File Server u just Plug n Play anywhere you have a Cat5!

In fact I think I'll draw this out as it will be easier to digest, time for updated diagrams me thinks. The server may need to handle a bit more than just media playback, possibly a CCTV card amongst other things.

Call me old fashion but Seperates have always made more sense to me, I would dedicate a machine to the CCTV task.

Drawings n Diagrams Yes Yes Yes! LOL

 

[Munkey]

Media player is out as I'm not to convinced how good a video scaler you get in a £100 box plus it lacks functionality for my needs. In the main HT I'm running an ISCO II anamorphic lens on a 2.35:1 screen. I need my source player to be able to mess around with subtitles on a screen. Some video source material contains subtitles that are in the black bars and I need the ability to try and manipulate their positioning on the screen. I think only the Kaleidescape media server can do this and it's the price equivalent of a nice new car.

I've got a collection of srt files to support my obsession for world cinema and my cinescope setup.

I should have mentioned that I'm a kind of Lumagen junkie. I've gone through the lot of them and currently own the HDQ which I would only swap for a Crystalio II. Pretty much whatever video sources I link up I would like for the Lumagen to control the video scaling side of things, it truly is a remarkable product.

So far as storage is concerned I'd love to implement NAS storage but it costs too much compared to a RAID 6 PC based system with a high end RAID card. My storage needs are 8TB including future content, a NAS system with a decent hardware controller would surely cost a fortune?

Time for bed.

 

[Hejira]

You are not going to like this, BUT, I have recently installed a Kaleidescape media server and while a beautiful piece of kit, It is simply a Raid file server and HD Media Player which IMHO can be achieved for a fraction of the cost and more configurabilty with XBMC HTPC n Linux Server!

I've never doubted your obessed m8! LOL When you find a bit of kit that does what it says on the tin, Why change!

I'm sure I can keep teasing small pieces of info out of ya, but I would be intersted in the actual setup n how it connects together.

We're thinking along the same lines with storage, but I don't see this being a fortune, again I'm @ an advantage maybe because I've prob got enough parts sitting around to build one, there are plenty of linux based Howtos for software Raid6.

Raid5 Example with FreeNAS [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rENHXigM75w[/ame]

I personally would recommend looking @ a Linux Server setup if you want to get better read write performance.

I have mainly found cost of tech is about how pretty it is, But do I really need to look @ it? Shut the Cupboard Door!

 

[Munkey]

I'm long gone caring what things look like, when I look back and think of all the money I wasted on fancy dan cases I think to myself, damn I was a fool. That's why I'd like as much of my source devices to be hidden out of the way as I'd rather spend money on tech and not aesthetics.

Software raid, you sure.....sounds dodgy and has never offered blistering performance compared to hardware cards. This is the raid card I've been using for a while now, I get over 400Mbs read and around 300Mbs writes with a 32k block size which is super performance. If software raid can give me similar results then I'd make the switch over in a heartbeat.

LMAO that cruddy PII server rocked, I still have a Duron 1gz backup server which has never let me down.

OK so NAS is the way to go so I'm going to have to build one. Do you think i should just use the Duron CPU or shall I use something a bit more meaty? I mean it's just going to act as a file server so I won't be needing any kind of load balancing will I? Low power and stability is the key here as it will probably be on 24/7. Shall I dump the 3ware card?

I can't believe you've had the fortune to work with a Kaleidescape server, even more unbelievable is the fact that you didn't rate it. but I'll take your word on that, installers are the guys in the know as they have to configure everything, end users like myself just believe what we read in the glossy flyer.

Just putting the finishing touches to my new diagrams, just when I think I'm done I remember something that I've left out. You can have a laugh tomorrow when you see them, I could swear I'm rewiring the Titanic.

 

[Hejira]

I've simply offered software raid as an option based on cost not performance, that's not to say that software raid would not do the required job, How many HD streams do u want @ any one time? We are talking Network Speeds as a server that's where the bottleneck will be! What bitrates will the Newtork have to handle serving HD Content!

If you have hardware raid your already ahead of the game m8, I take it you have that inside your HTPC? I'm def promoting using all existing kit where poss, to gain the function you require, for as little cost.

This would be my DIY idea of an everyday Cost effective Network Storage solution with Better performance than an off the shelf NAS, Low Power and countless upgradable expansion options! Dosn't have to be atom based If you have some bit's sitting around. Also checkout some of the other howto's.
Build Your Own Atom-based NAS - Part 2

It's not that I don't rate the K it's I can't justify it's cost for what it does! I couldn't help but compare the Media Player to XBMC and the inteface n function dosn't compare IMHO. Sorry I wern't that impressed LOL

Look forward to Diagrams.

 

[Munkey]

Ya git LOL,

I've decided to start my own thread about my new HT, hopefully it will help someone out, I'll post plenty of pics. I'll try and go into as much detail as I can, if you see me screwing up along the way, feel free to kick me up the arse.

So far as AV automation goes I'm going to pester you, that in itself is a technical minefield and I see this thread being a very long but informative one.

 

[Munkey]

When running the cables, are there any rules as to which ones to keep isolated or in groups? Or shall I just run them all in one big bunch which doesn't sound too clever

It's the analogue cables that are most prone to interference, right? I'm thinking of running co-axial, component and speaker cables in their own trunking/housing.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

 

[Hejira]

When running the cables, are there any rules as to which ones to keep isolated or in groups? Or shall I just run them all in one big bunch which doesn't sound too clever

It's the analogue cables that are most prone to interference, right? I'm thinking of running co-axial, component and speaker cables in their own trunking/housing.

Any advice on this would be appreciated.

The cables shielding is of course the key, the better the shielding the less chance of interfierence, Power cables are normally your prob and there should be @ least a small distance from other cables, If crossing cables it's best to be @ right angles, straight lines are not just to make things look neat n pretty!

Does that make sense?

 

[Munkey]

I've shielded the electric T&E cables and will keep them as far away as possible from the AV cabling. I'd don't know why I'm so nervous, possibly because I've had months to plan this and feel I'm on the verge of screwing up.

I've had an 11th hour change as well. You better check my thread out and laugh at me.

 

[Munkey]

@ Hejira

I've given up on the Lex, it just didn't fit into my system no matter how good it performed. It's lack of speaker out's made it very troublesome to configure for multi zone usage. I'll probably regret it later but for now I'll just have to soldier on.

The new addition is the Denon A11XV, I bought it second hand, it used to belong to Little Britons David Walliams but he's upgraged to a 4xxx series Denon. More importantly here is the back panel

Here is pretty much the final diagram I'm wiring off

I just can't figure out how I'm going to get shared audio into the lounge. Do I have a media player in the lounge linked up to the NAS or do I go for some other type of solution? I really don't want to have to turn the TV on if I want to listen to mp3's stored elsewhere in the house.

I thought that this was meant to be fun.

---

Off to the Ideal Home Show tomorrow armed with the above diagram, it'll be interesting to hear what solutions AV automation companies suggest.

 

[Hejira]

I'm beside myself, I can't comment @ the mo I need to get the box of tissues! LOL

 

[Munkey]

I'm beside myself, I can't comment @ the mo I need to get the box of tissues! LOL

:Laugh:

That's how I felt when they told me how much the Lex upgrade from v4 to v5 was, except my whole family was crying too.

 

[MFCGMFC]

The new addition is the Denon A11XV, I bought it second hand, it used to belong to Little Britons David Walliams but he's upgraged to a 4xxx series Denon.

yeah he's partial to many inputs

sorry i'll get my coat and go and wraggle some walls

Cheers
MFCGAVMFC