mozr
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2007
- Messages
- 3,175
- Reaction score
- 205
Someone has gone to defcon one. Hmm, okay...
Where did I dismiss the idea that there is no wrong doing whatsoever? Go on, please quote me. We are talking about two things here. My assertion that wrongdoing in the British forces happens and is in the minority, and yours, which is a suggestion (and that's all it is because you have no evidence) that the majority of British armed forces are guilty of wrong doing.
Also, Abu Ghraib whilst a stain on the character of the west, is incomparable to what has happened to western hostages, and captive soldiers. It was also in the minority, not the majority.
Allow me to explain why you have no evidence for your 'majority' question.
So. You have heard of a Pentagon report that 'suggests' something, and that rape is lumped in with other forms of sexual abuse, and you transpose that American report and blame our soldiers for its findings.
So we have some anecdotal stories, and assumptions.
The reason I think you are a navel gazer is because you only seem preoccupied with western transgressions. You have the usual issue (that a lot of lazy left wing critics have) of considering eastern, asian, and african countries as noble savages, who only reacts with evil when evil is thrust upon them. Ignoring history, you seek to excuse anything that the 'other' powers do, always using the same reasons for their behaviour: imperialism, oil, religious wars, the cold war, the CIA, etc.
33 allegations and you then question the entire army? You make your bed mate.
If you do not see that there is a clash of civilisations here then you are blind. Is Iran seeking to gain a Nuclear weapon because America made it by being nasty to them? Or are you so relativistic that you condone Iran's nuclear ambitions? You know, that country that is sitting on the biggest dinosaur graveyard in the world, seeking alternative energy.
I am an interventionist. If someone is getting mugged across the street I help them. If a country asks for our help (Kuwait, Bosnia, Afghanistan - during the Russian invasion) I think we should respond.
I know you think I am a flag waving jingoist but you are wrong. I am an atheist, a staunch anti-royalist, and a libertarian. I just happen to believe that the west is a force for good in this world. Not completely, not perfectly, but a force for good nonetheless.
I suggest reading Foucault, and maybe some Amis, and Hitchens (Christopher), to glean my position on the issue surrounding power, global politics, and the insidious nature of radical factions of Islam.
In a perfect world, we would all live happily ever after. The world is not perfect.
I had more or less the same discussion with an American a few months before the Abu Graib story broke, and he dismissed the idea of wrong-doing with the same empty, rhetorical bluster as you do, so I'll give you the same advice I gave him and suggest that you think of it less as navel gazing and more as moving beyond the prevailing daddy-is-the-bestest-daddy-in-the-world mindset that leads so many to blindly support whatever the home team deems acceptable behavior.
Where did I dismiss the idea that there is no wrong doing whatsoever? Go on, please quote me. We are talking about two things here. My assertion that wrongdoing in the British forces happens and is in the minority, and yours, which is a suggestion (and that's all it is because you have no evidence) that the majority of British armed forces are guilty of wrong doing.
Also, Abu Ghraib whilst a stain on the character of the west, is incomparable to what has happened to western hostages, and captive soldiers. It was also in the minority, not the majority.
Allow me to explain why you have no evidence for your 'majority' question.
[...]but the Pentagon recently released a reported which suggested that as many as 1 in 3 women in the military have been the victim of rape and other forms of sexual abuse. I don't know what the numbers are for the British army, but when you look at their recruitment policies, I wouldn't expect them to be much different.
So. You have heard of a Pentagon report that 'suggests' something, and that rape is lumped in with other forms of sexual abuse, and you transpose that American report and blame our soldiers for its findings.
We often hear about the kind of less than desirable people that are being recruited, because it's difficult to meet recruitment targets these days, and it's not just the physically unfit who get a pass. I know a guy whose son was diagnosed with some kind of bipolar disorder a few years ago, who has a history of violent and threatening behavior and a general problem with authority. He's in the army now. This happens all the time, and it's perfectly clear that these are not the best and the brightest.
So we have some anecdotal stories, and assumptions.
The reason I think you are a navel gazer is because you only seem preoccupied with western transgressions. You have the usual issue (that a lot of lazy left wing critics have) of considering eastern, asian, and african countries as noble savages, who only reacts with evil when evil is thrust upon them. Ignoring history, you seek to excuse anything that the 'other' powers do, always using the same reasons for their behaviour: imperialism, oil, religious wars, the cold war, the CIA, etc.
But like I've said at least twice throughout the thread, it was never merely an issue of just these latest allegations, which I genuinely hope are proven to be false. I've never suggested the majority of the military are rapists, but if they share your it's-about-power-and-that's-ok view, then they're bad eggs, period.
33 allegations and you then question the entire army? You make your bed mate.
But it's never been an issue of western way of life vs Shariah law. That's just another one of these nonsensical "they hate our freedom/way of life" diversions your kind resort to when your argument hits the wall, and which all too often (and a few beers later) leads to the heart of the matter: "we should just nuke the place".
If you do not see that there is a clash of civilisations here then you are blind. Is Iran seeking to gain a Nuclear weapon because America made it by being nasty to them? Or are you so relativistic that you condone Iran's nuclear ambitions? You know, that country that is sitting on the biggest dinosaur graveyard in the world, seeking alternative energy.
I am an interventionist. If someone is getting mugged across the street I help them. If a country asks for our help (Kuwait, Bosnia, Afghanistan - during the Russian invasion) I think we should respond.
I know you think I am a flag waving jingoist but you are wrong. I am an atheist, a staunch anti-royalist, and a libertarian. I just happen to believe that the west is a force for good in this world. Not completely, not perfectly, but a force for good nonetheless.
I suggest reading Foucault, and maybe some Amis, and Hitchens (Christopher), to glean my position on the issue surrounding power, global politics, and the insidious nature of radical factions of Islam.
In a perfect world, we would all live happily ever after. The world is not perfect.