Manchester Bikers Fuel Protest This coming THURSDAY

[karym6]

Oil shale/sands/tar use massive amounts of energy to extract and produce an enormous amount of co2.
Just gonna have to take the rough with the smooth.

they should be used a stopgap untill sustainable fuels are more wide spread though. There is little point in trading one finite source of fuel for another - otherwise we will end up in the same situation again

 

[gooner71]

There are so many alternative fuels in the pipeline it doesnt matter - hydrogen extracted from water (i hear this technology has been stifled for years due to pressure from the oil companies and government reliance on oil taxes) - nuclear is available now - they could build a car today that wouldnt need refuelling for years - same as they have got nuclear subs running - when the oil eventually does run out - (and not in out lifetime) they will just switch to something else!!

Its all a con to make money

 

[karym6]

There are so many alternative fuels in the pipeline it doesnt matter - hydrogen extracted from water (i hear this technology has been stifled for years due to pressure from the oil companies and government reliance on oil taxes) - nuclear is available now - they could build a car today that wouldnt need refuelling for years - same as they have got nuclear subs running - when the oil eventually does run out - (and not in out lifetime) they will just switch to something else!!

Its all a con to make money

precisely.

The hydrogen from water thing is a reality now, you can buy model cars that operate on this principle right now: http://www.maxconrad.com/hydrogenmodelcar.htm

I also recall NASA putting forward the idea to use this principle to power space craft.

Oil will probably not run out in our lifetime, but it will certainly dwindle. Hopefully, by this time we will be onto a much more suitable fuel.

 

[Munkey]

precisely.

The hydrogen from water thing is a reality now, you can buy model cars that operate on this principle right now: http://www.maxconrad.com/hydrogenmodelcar.htm

I also recall NASA putting forward the idea to use this principle to power space craft.

Oil will probably not run out in our lifetime, but it will certainly dwindle. Hopefully, by this time we will be onto a much more suitable fuel.

I read a book called Half gone by Jeremy Leggett who was an advocate of the 'peak theory' The guys a geologist turned conservationist and according to him after 2010ish we will see a rapid decline in new discovery.

Most sources say that we are good for at least another 40-50 years but haven't we reached the maximum output of 85M barrels a day already IIRC?

Not sure who to believe but I'd lean towards the conservationists rather than government sponsored data. Either way things are going to get very difficult in years to come.

Back on topic - well done to all those that organised the fuel protest.

 

[scanny]

precisely.

The hydrogen from water thing is a reality now, you can buy model cars that operate on this principle right now: http://www.maxconrad.com/hydrogenmodelcar.htm

in what way is this a reality? the fact that it is technically possible even though the developers openly admit that it is currently useless due to storage and high pressure requirements. i am not against alternative fuels BUT they must match or exceed the performance of the product being replaced. performance, practicality and availability are all necessary and sadly lacking with current products. even LPG seems to be difficult to find and thats been around for a while now

 

[karym6]

it is a reality in so far it can power a model car. Granted it isnt ready for powering full sized vehicles at the present time, but this proves the concept works.

I agree with you on LPG, depending on where you are it can be very hard or very easy to find. As for matching or exceeding the performance of existing fuels, that isnt going to happen straight away. There are already dual fuel vehicles on the market now for private use. Is there a reason why this cannot be evaluated for haulage?

Essentially, right now all lorries need to be is much more efficient in the way they burn fuel.

 

[scanny]

do you think that hauliers want to pay so much for fuel? i know tesco for example are running 100% biodiesel in their trucks. TNT are using electric trucks for local deliveries. where the alternatives are of practical use (financially viable and able to sustain their normal operations) they are making the change. the fact is though that not all alternatives are viable for all truck operations. until the technology is available and proven to be reliable, they are not going to switch and i wouldnt either in that situation. the profit margin for a haulier is around 2% which doesnt leave much to invest in something that may not work out as a benefit or cost effective solution. every penny counts so throwing a few away with such a low profit margin is not worth contemplating. even as things stand now we are beginning to see medium sized, well known hauliers going to the wall. that is a desperate situation!

 

[karym6]

so, for UK only haulage, isnt biodeisel an option at all?

I can understand that electric lorries wouldnt be such a good thing and I can also understand you couldnt really use a biodeisel truck outside the UK. But for domestic operations, this should be ok? After all, it is cheaper - I think its cheaper by 25%?

 

[scanny]

i dont know the difference in price or the difference in practicality. servicing costs and frequency could be higher meaning more expenditure and downtime. it also comes down to availability. i cant say i have ever seen it on a forecourt next to unleaded and diesel. maybe the retailers could use it more but i doubt it would be of use to general hauliers who send a wagon out and dont see it again for 4 or 5 days

 

[karym6]

i dont know the difference in price or the difference in practicality. servicing costs and frequency could be higher meaning more expenditure and downtime. it also comes down to availability. i cant say i have ever seen it on a forecourt next to unleaded and diesel. maybe the retailers could use it more but i doubt it would be of use to general hauliers who send a wagon out and dont see it again for 4 or 5 days

point taken.

I was thinking more along the lines that a haulage firm could buy the equipment and process their own biodeisel for us in the company, but naturally there is little opportunity to get it anywhere else other than one place it is processed.

 

[karym6]

And where does the biodiesel come from ? oil.. if im correct. Which in turn pushes up oil prices for people who need it to cook with. it can also be grown in crops i believe, which in turn takes fields/crops away from humans causing higher prices for food as there isnt as much grown...

this, of course, is nonsense.

Biodeisel can be recycled from waste cooking oil, thats how most people are doing it their garages right now. I think other threads have already pointed out that countries like China have the worlds largest export market for raw biodeisel related products, like rapeseed oil and soya.

 

[scanny]

And where does the biodiesel come from ? oil.. if im correct. Which in turn pushes up oil prices for people who need it to cook with. it can also be grown in crops i believe, which in turn takes fields/crops away from humans causing higher prices for food as there isnt as much grown...

http://www.bdpedia.com/biodiesel/alt/alt.html

and for the green loonies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/aug/17/climatechange.energy

so taking the vehicles themselves out of the equation, biofuels are not the way to go forward anyway

 

[karym6]

well, the article from the Gaurdian is over a year old. I presume this is discussing the use of 100% bio-deisel, at the moment I think the government are opting for a mix of petro and bio-deisel in the pumps?

The article on the drawbacks is correct, its hard to transport, hard to keep warm, means your vehicle needs more servicing and doesnt provide the same performance. But it is totally incorrect on the pricing for some reason. We know its cheaper.

The best bet for biodiesel now is to mix it with petro-deisel.

 

[karym6]

You just like to argue anything I post dont you..!

I know it can be made from waste oil.. but how much wast oil would be available once hauliers start to use it ? NONE.

As for rapeseed oil and soya, there both food products as far as I know... So would this not have an effect on the populations food supplys ? Yes I think so.


So how is it nonsence..! you just dont like people ppsting things you dont agree with and can not see past your own arrogance..!

no, I am not disagreeing with you for the sake of it, I am balancing out some of your more extreme viewpoints on the subject.

Yes, both those foodstuffs are used to feed people, however China is exporting it to whoever buys it. Soya is used primarily in some processed foods in the UK, as well as being available as a is (tofu etc). The affect this would have on the nations food supply would be tiny, after all we dont survive on rapeseed oil and soya protein do we?

On the point of waste oil, I would like to see your proof that there wouldnt be enough to go round.

 

[pipsqueaker]

@notmeatatall

I said that in the 70's we were told that we were heading for a new ice age.

The graph you posted proves that the temperature was higher in 1958 than most the years to the 70's.
That's probably why they said it.

If you believe 'Experts' without thinking for yourself that's up to you.

It was 'Experts' that predicted we'd all die from bird flu a couple of years ago.

It was 'Experts' who predicted that our civilisation was doomed when all the computers would crash on
01/01/2000 (Millenium bug)

It was 'Experts' who predicted major upheaval when the asteroids hit Jupiter.

It was 'Experts' who told us that the house price boom would not end.

You cannot rely on computer models. The computer output depends on the computer input and who enters it.
How many volcanoes or forest fires did they put in the model?
If ther is more CO2 than usual it is because mankind is cutting down too many trees.

 

[karym6]

they are not computer models, its a trend plotted on a graph.

Apparently experts are also telling us that the oil will last for decades to come - which experts do you want us to listen to?

The last expert who mentioned that oil would be a problem in the US during the 70's was almost laughed out of a job. Isnt hindsight wonderful.

 

[smirnoff_rules]

very true karym6 , they r finding new oil reserves every day .. where being robbed again ..

 

[karym6]

here is a list of the larger oil fields: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil/Table_of_largest_oil_fields

There are a few bigones that have been found recently, but not that many when you look at it.

 

[pipsqueaker]

they are not computer models, its a trend plotted on a graph.

Apparently experts are also telling us that the oil will last for decades to come - which experts do you want us to listen to?

The last expert who mentioned that oil would be a problem in the US during the 70's was almost laughed out of a job. Isnt hindsight wonderful.

My post was an answer to 'notmeatatall'
He spoke of computer models.

 

[karym6]

my mistake.

At least we know now that the graph is plotting a trend line.