New system - Ideas?

steev_m

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I could really use some help if anybody is willing. I have to start by saying that I’m not very worldly in the area of A/V, it’s a whole new world for me and I’m doing my best to learn, but it’s not easy starting from almost nothing (most I’ve ever had before it a TV and satellite box in the living room).

I am refurbishing our home, it’s an big old farmhouse and as we’re a large family (five children), I thought, while I’m ripping the plaster off all the walls, I’d put in a multi room A/V system. Trouble is, I have a very limited budget once I’ve bought the TV’s themselves, so I’m trying to figure out what I can achieve still.

Basically, what I want ideally is visual and audio media in eleven locations (six bedrooms, guest room, kitchen, living room, play room and cinema room) and further if possible audio media also in the dining room and in the two bathrooms.

I think I have TV and Satellite mostly figured out, with the exception of the cinema room anyway, my proposal is to use a Labgear TV distribution amplifier (similar to HDU681S but more outputs) with five inputs of two sky+HDboxes, the tv ariel, and FM ariel, a DAB ariel and 12 outputs (so I have one spare). This will only work with Coax, so only standard resolution (no HD), but except for the cinema room that is fine, and will delivery two sky channels, freeview, fm and dab radio to all the rooms, and by adding magic eyes and a global super plus combiner I can even control the sky boxes from each room if I want to. Total cost (excluding cabling) is about £300 plus the tv’s in each room

But that leaves me still with three main problems to solve

1) I also want to be able to deliver recorded media to all of the rooms, independently, so mainly music (back-up cd’s or downloaded music) and back-up dvd’s, would also be nice to watch stored home movies and photos. I’d like to be able to control the delivery of this media, in each room, with some kind of remote controller. I’ve considered
a) Sonos – But for 11 main rooms plus a further 3 zones, it’s going to be very expensive, and still won’t solve visual media, I do like that it gives me access to Napster though, and I don’t know if any of the other solutions can do that, can they?
b) Apple TV – Seems to have some potential, put one in each room, give each family member an ipod touch, but I apart from 11 apple tv’s and 6 ipod touches, I don’t really know what else I need to make it work, presumably some kind of central device with itunes running (can I link 11 apple tv’s to one itunes) and can I put home movies and back-up dvd’s into itunes?
c) Other streaming devices like boxee or xbox360 or ps3 – Again, seems to have some potential, with one in each room, though less clear how to control the devices, although seems like they can handle wider variety of media and can use a standard NAS drive at the hub to store everything, but is it a better or worse solution than apple tv? Any thoughts?
d) A central media server or media PC– Getting out of my league to understand these, so much content on the net, so many conflicting articles about how good or bad they are, and not clear to me what combination of central device and client device I’d need and what costs would be, any support on options here would help, but again, I am looking for a budget solution.
e) I even thought, what about just a laptop in each room, directly connected to the tv, either with it’s own local storage, or also still having a NAS on the network – But naturally more expensive than b) or c) so probably not best budget option.
f) what am I missing, or which of the above would be most stable and easy to use

2) I need to figure out the cinema room – In there I want a projector and screen, and want to be able to watch the sky+HD and the HD recorded media, in HD, and have surround sound, 5.1, so how to integrate this with the rest, but have it in HD? Any ideas?

3) If I can, I’d like to be able to have a pair of corner speakers in each room, so the sound can either come from the TV, but also can come out of speakers instead, but I am lost how to achieve this (have never used speakers before, only tv). What is the difference between active speakers and passive speakers, how do I get the sound to go from my TV, to the speakers, what do I need in the middle and how much does it cost, or can I directly connect speakers to my TV, if so, what kind? I am not an audiophile, they don’t need to be the worlds most amazing speakers, just basic room speakers to deliver a nice stereo sound, better than comes directly out of the TV itself.

Help… Please, anybody that has better knowledge than me, I’d appreciate help on any or all of the above, and I going off in wrong directions, am I missing things that would do the job better… Already the above is the result of nearly two weeks of surfing and trying to learn, going round in circles and feeling very out of my depth…. Am I making a mistake separating the tv from the recorded media, is there a better ‘all in one’ solution, on a budget? Hope someone out there might be able to help me…
 
Specifically my requirements are to have:

Audio and Video in 11 rooms, and audio only in a further 3 rooms which are linked with the same output as three of the original 11 (so just sub zones), ideally with the sources all being in a central hub (a rack in a cupboard). I want each media point to have independent control of what they watch or listen to, so in fact to be able to do 11 different things at the same time and control what they are doing with a remote, at the media point.

As an idea of budget, excluding the cabling, projector, speakers and televisions, sky boxes and ariels (so mainly focusing on switches, remote controllers, IR extenders, servers, clients, drives, streamers, amps if needed) I am trying to come in somewhere between £2000 and £3000, the more complete a system, the more integrated and centrally controlled, the more functionality, the more I would spend I guess... Of course, if my expectations are entirely unrealistic, then I need to be told that and told what budget I should be looking at... I do however prefer to compromise on my requirements where possible, to keep within budget
 
Concerning media streaming, i think the cheapest way and easiest way, would be to get like you say boxee, or a streaming device, e.g. wdlive tv or something like that, and have wired networked, and have a nas drive, then you dont have to worry about remote control, as media player would have remote, and every one can share the same content. Pointless going wireless due to steaming bandwidth imo, and maybe future hd stream.

Hpoe this helps
 
If you are installing yourself it might be able to be done with £3000 - pushing it.
You are talking about just the wiring and not all equipment right ?

Taking time into it, cable cost, etc

Are you going to have 11 satellite boxes then ?

Because you can get an octo LNB with 8 connections that will easily do 4 satellite boxes in HD.

I think a multi switch is overkill you should just get a basic TV booster and boost the signal to each telly and then run cat6 to each TV and then use boulons to transfer the hdmi over cat6.

If it was me I would do this.

11 rooms

All rooms except cinema - 2 x cat6 (1 extra for future) (1 cat6 per boulon), 2 x RF HD100 coax (1 for TV 1 for future).

2 x cat6 next to the beds for either phone or ipod docking etc.

For audio in every room I would install a basic Nuvo system that will distribute 5 channels per nuvo box, so you need 3 boxes, you will also need to run 1 x cat6 to each nuvo control (single back box (47mm deep) at finger tip height to control sources and volume.

You should also distribute your phone line with cat5/6 too (i would use cat6 for future use) from the same rack.

I would install 4 sky boxes in the rack, distribute the HDMI with switches and use boulons to send the HD signal to each TV, and with the nuvo system I would link the audio from the sky box so that if you wish you could use that to play the sound across speakers in ceilings or walls etc (you will need to mess about with the delays a little).

Install everything in 47mm back boxes nothing smaller!

keep all cables a minimum of 300mm away from mains and anything else!

Cables can cross but not run along side!

cat5/6 cannot be installed in conditions below -5 degrees it is brittle and will buckle, tip place a heater next to the boxes while pulling them. no sharp turns.

Are you integrating lighting with RAKO or ~LUTRON ?

Are you going to be using pronto, rti, harmony, remotes ?

Who has planned this installation for you?

Any questions just ask

Regards
Mick
 
I have sonos in every room, I love it! but they are all hard wired its just too slow when using as wifi.

The remotes are slow and responsive but once you plug in that little rj45 (cat6 I have) and its like putting your machine on turbo!

I installed this rack the other week. it has 2 sky boxes (just installed another), it has a nuvo music system that is conected to a DAB radio, sky boxes, and a mac mini that has music stored on it.

It is also connected to apple TV, and is controlled via a pronto and apple touch - or any apple device that can use the itunes.

It also can control the lights via the pronto or apple devices integrated with rako lighting (wifi bridge and RS232)
 
Hi Mick,

You clearly know a lot about this stuff, thanks for the help so far.

Before getting onto hardware, you have got me a bit worried now about cabling.... My intention was, while figuring out the system to use, to at least get cabling in place to suit the ultimate system, then I can use it, or not, as case may be.

I think we're aligned on the number of cables, I am thinking 2 coax and 4 cat6 behind the tv point (two for possible HD delivery to tv, one for possible internet streaming, one spare for whatever they come up with in a few years time), and a further 2 cat6 at skirting level for internet or phone or controllers... My intention is to run everything via the loft (will be under the insulation, so can't imagine it getting below -5), but you say I can't run the cables along side each other, what does that mean? If I have four cat 6 behind the tv, they can't all run up the wall behind the plaster together? How far apart does each individual cable have to be, and what do I do when the cables start to converge on the hub where I'll have about 70 cat 6 cables all coming into one cupboard, is it feasible to keep them apart? What are the tolerances for this?

Hope you can help with this first, then I can come back on the system itself... Thanks again for helping...
 
You cant run alongside power cables (240) - other than power its fine to run along side each other.

BSEN7671 states all band cables must be 100mm away from each other... I choose 300mm because it works for me.

Mick
 
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Boulons today are 1 cat6 (hd distribution) - the old boulons was 2 cat5.

When I am talking about the cables below -5 its when installing, once installed they should be good forever unless you run outside.

They should not be pulled in temps below -5 :)

Also I think that 4 x cat6 cables behind the TV in a double 47mm backbox is a great idea, with the future moving the way it is, you might want a ps3, and an xbox, plus a slingbox, etc.

I had to install a small switch in my living room av cupboard as almost everything in there has an RJ45 socket :(, so get in as much as you can.

And prioritize the TV's that will probably have the most stuff connected as you wont be able to run everything from the rack, you might have a wii, ps3, xbox360 in the living room that is 3 cables for them without the sonos, appletv, etc.

Mick
 
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Personally I would have a server / client situation going on here. Have a PC for all your recordings and media somewhere running myth tv installation and then use some apple tv2's with xbmc installed. With this you can use the mythtv xbmc plugin to stream your HD recorded TV into any room and he normal xbmc interface for movies and music.

It would be cheaper but less flashy to ensure your tvs are dlna compatible then install a simple dlna server on the server machine and forget the apple tv2 units.

Elaboration available upon request ;)
 
I would also have a server setup, but for now he wants the ability to play music in each room, but he wants to control it in each room so it has to be either sonos, or a music station of some kind (and there is hundreds of systems). but the appleTV would be a great choice to do it all, but how far would steev be wanting to go with setup of the system ?

I think the sonos is probably the cheapest for what it can do!!! (i do love the sonos)

While still expensive lol.

But the Nuvo will give him wall controls for each zone, and it can play from up to 5 sources and control volume, its basic but is very nice and it amplifies the speakers so no need for an amp.

But yes I would 100% have a network server that can stream media, I have 3 x PS3 that all stream from a server in my kitchen next to my switch.

it is so cheap for what it can do.

Mick
 
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You can still get sonos functionality with atv2 and iphone/pod/pad/android
xbmcremote_teaser_640.png

amplification would be a factor though as apples are only line level units, personally I would have a sonos zp120 in each music zone. Still atv2 and a load of cheap chinese android tablets will get the job done. Your method would be the easyest, mine will be cheapest and require some timkering for installing xbmc on the arm processor of the atv2's looks fairly easy but depends on the posters PC abilities
 
The newer TV's actually stream from servers now, he could choose all TV's that have streaming abillity, but he would still need a audio line back to the rack or small amps per room.

There is so much choice.

Hawkish that apple tv xmbc looks very good mate I was not aware it could do that, I would also consider this if I was steev.

He will still need to adress the music being played via the speakers in each room, and amplification, but that is a nice option.

You got any more info on that mate?

Mick
 
one problem with apple tv I believe its SD only.

If you really want to save cash and are happy with SD I go old school and get 11 original xbox (around £20 each), softmod them and stick XBMC on them. That way you also get a DVD player as well. Probably do that lot for 300 quid. I believe you can still use iTouch or any device with a web browser to control them so that would give you some options.

Then put in a central server running W2K8 or WHS.
 
Good point oneman, I had a look and the atv2 are OK on 720p but wont do 1080p. Not too bad then

In theory, the original xbox does 720p with componant leads and it works for the menus but being PIII based with an old nvidia video chip, it can't playback 720p video smoothly.

Apparently Game are doing original xbox with leads, one controller and no games for a tenner. You will need goldeneye, a xbox to USB convertor and small memory key to do the softmod, say another tenner. Of course that can be reused for all the softmods.

There is some more information about controlling XBMC via a web browser here,

The Web Interface - XBMC4Xbox Wiki
 
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