Anyone got a fish tank in VERY HARD WATER AREA???

[Explosivo]

throw a calgon tab in there lol

i think putting bogwood in the tank softens the water.
i live in a hard water area and my fish seem fine (coldwater fancies) i'v got a couple of big bits of bogwood in there.

had tropicals before and they seemed quite happy to.

 

[Firemouth]

throw a calgon tab in there lol

i think putting bogwood in the tank softens the water.
i live in a hard water area and my fish seem fine (coldwater fancies) i'v got a couple of big bits of bogwood in there.

had tropicals before and they seemed quite happy to.

Calgon lol. Potassium chlorate is used, by those trying to wean themselves off RO (even in Marine). but it still needs buffered before use.

Almond leafs, Oak leafs (dried) and bog wood all can reduce hardness. the leafs tend to be used in BlackWater tanks most though.

however you do it, the same problem remains. so reducing or increasing hardness is fraught with problems! maintaining a consistent environment (the reason used most for messin with PH or water for that matter), is very difficult. the unbuffered nature of the resulting water makes it a nightmare, and costly too. then you get into the whole "GH,KH,PH thing, two are differing forms of hardness one is a measure of acidity/alkalinity and all need to be balanced.
(it amuses me how many aquarists think changing the ph, is changing the hardness of the water. when KH "calcium hardness" and GH "General Hardness" actually do that.) confusing init? that's why most recommend keeping fish happy in your native PH. remembering they are not a sensitive as you might think. even inverts like Crayfish (absorbing calcium from the water they live in) are happy down to 6.5 and up to 8.5.

 

[Mick]

Calgon lol. Potassium chlorate is used, by those trying to wean themselves off RO (even in Marine). but it still needs buffered before use.

Almond leafs, Oak leafs (dried) and bog wood all can reduce hardness. the leafs tend to be used in BlackWater tanks most though.

however you do it, the same problem remains. so reducing or increasing hardness is fraught with problems! maintaining a consistent environment (the reason used most for messin with PH or water for that matter), is very difficult. the unbuffered nature of the resulting water makes it a nightmare, and costly too. then you get into the whole "GH,KH,PH thing, two are differing forms of hardness one is a measure of acidity/alkalinity and all need to be balanced.
(it amuses me how many aquarists think changing the ph, is changing the hardness of the water. when KH "calcium hardness" and GH "General Hardness" actually do that.) confusing init? that's why most recommend keeping fish happy in your native PH. remembering they are not a sensitive as you might think. even inverts like Crayfish (absorbing calcium from the water they live in) are happy down to 6.5 and up to 8.5.

While I agree 100% on the hardiness issue you also have to note the KH falls you PH will also suffer, Its all about reproducing the ocean and rivers as close as in nature, and all the forms balance them self's out, and a good way to keep your tank stable is to keep your PH in check. but also checking your KH is a very important part of reef's, and I would guess tropical and cold water.

I would not put no wood in your tank to reduce minerals by the way without fully washing it because it could leach phosphates into the tank and thats the last thing you want in there.

Again I am no expert there are some fellas on a few sites that I use that know shit that I never dreamed about and you would think that they are biologists. I just post what I have read and could be wrong

Mickie

 

[sargie]

While I agree 100% on the hardiness issue you also have to note the KH falls you PH will also suffer, Its all about reproducing the ocean and rivers as close as in nature, and all the forms balance them self's out, and a good way to keep your tank stable is to keep your PH in check. but also checking your KH is a very important part of reef's, and I would guess tropical and cold water.

I would not put no wood in your tank to reduce minerals by the way without fully washing it because it could leach phosphates into the tank and thats the last thing you want in there.

Again I am no expert there are some fellas on a few sites that I use that know shit that I never dreamed about and you would think that they are biologists. I just post what I have read and could be wrong

Mickie

How you getting on with your reef mickie i remeber the thread. I was in an aquatics place the other day looking at the orcas they had a nice nano reef in one with a couple of clown fish and it looked amazing.

 

[Firemouth]

oops ok admission time. its Carbonate hardness not calcium hardness for KH. actually very different. unfortunately i have had no access to the net, to correct my mistake, until now.

forgot about your tank Mickie, all well i hope! any chance of some pictures?
i'm trying to sell a cracking Marine set up atm. unfortunately its not mine, so i cant put it in the "sales section", and i still don't have access to the "pets" section of the classifieds. ahh well.

you post reads, pretty much how i view it. though the "consistent" parameters is a phallusy, in nature and tank. balance is much less important in fresh than marine, as the water used in marine is "destroyed" by the RO process.

good rule of thumb for keeping gold fish. if the waters around you have fishing rivers. and carp can be caught. then you will have no trouble keeping goldfish in your tap water. main thing for me, with goldfish, is the vast amount of water each fish needs. goldfish are filthy beasts. even a comet needs 50uk g for the first fish. and 30ukg for each extra fish. your bog standard goldfish need 80ukg better 100ukg and 30ukg for every extra fish. that's one hell of a lot of water. 3 comets need 110ukg (roughly a 6x18x18 foot tank). unfortunately, no fish "grow to the tank". they do show differing signs of stunting. goldfish are amongst a group of fish, who are adept at controlling growth. even so, its not healthy. though its handy for those who don't worry too much about their stock.

 

[sargie]

oops ok admission time. its Carbonate hardness not calcium hardness for KH. actually very different. unfortunately i have had no access to the net, to correct my mistake, until now.

forgot about your tank Mickie, all well i hope! any chance of some pictures?
i'm trying to sell a cracking Marine set up atm. unfortunately its not mine, so i cant put it in the "sales section", and i still don't have access to the "pets" section of the classifieds. ahh well.

you post reads, pretty much how i view it. though the "consistent" parameters is a phallusy, in nature and tank. balance is much less important in fresh than marine, as the water used in marine is "destroyed" by the RO process.

good rule of thumb for keeping gold fish. if the waters around you have fishing rivers. and carp can be caught. then you will have no trouble keeping goldfish in your tap water. main thing for me, with goldfish, is the vast amount of water each fish needs. goldfish are filthy beasts. even a comet needs 50uk g for the first fish. and 30ukg for each extra fish. your bog standard goldfish need 80ukg better 100ukg and 30ukg for every extra fish. that's one hell of a lot of water. 3 comets need 110ukg (roughly a 6x18x18 foot tank). unfortunately, no fish "grow to the tank". they do show differing signs of stunting. goldfish are amongst a group of fish, who are adept at controlling growth. even so, its not healthy. though its handy for those who don't worry too much about their stock.

I thought it was 10 gallon of water per fish?

 

[Mr Parsnip]

yeh good point on RO ph. its not 7, as you would expect, but closer to 6. so its quite acid (the un buffered nature of RO, causes this problem). interesting point on acid and Bio bacteria. but as Wilde Discus, often require, below 5 ph, and seem to be as easy to cycle as any other tank. i assume its a different variant of bacteria that grows. or the loss is not as significant as it may seem. the ph swing from adding acid to alkaline water may well cause problems too.

i am going round to test the ph straight from the tap.


mr p

 

[benny59]

i am going round to test the ph straight from the tap.


mr p

its been many years since i kept fish m8, but the ph testing kits i used to buy included genral and carbinate hardness tests aswell {a bit like a tapwater laboraty}-----------so dont forget to test the genral hardness aswell

firemouth and mickie seems to know the score, follow their advice and you cant go wrong

 

[sargie]

its been many years since i kept fish m8, but the ph testing kits i used to buy included genral and carbinate hardness tests aswell {a bit like a tapwater laboraty}-----------so dont forget to test the genral hardness aswell

firemouth and mickie seems to know the score, follow their advice and you cant go wrong

Yeah use liquid tests too not the paper strips i learnt they are no were near as accurate as the liquid test kits.

 

[Firemouth]

I thought it was 10 gallon of water per fish?

there are very few "tropical" fish who can live in that amount, well properly,(bettas being an exception) and no "temperate" that is commonly kept.

it scared the $hit out of me when i started to find the "true" volumes fish need. i have a 6 inch red tailed shark, that needs 50ukg min, and prefer 100g. unlike Goldfish, which are filthy, hence the water volume to process the muck, the Shark needs it for territory.

10g and they "grow to the size of the tank" are myths. they are peddled by LFS (fish shops) to make sales and perpetuated by those who don't research their hobby.(on offence to anyone here).
if you think its hard to find the correct volume your fish needs. try working out how much filtration you need. not only is it hard to pin down a "correct" amount. the info on the boxes of the gear you are buying, bares little, on no relevance to the flow you will get! that's probably why i find fishkeeping so much fun. 1000's of people keep them, but few get to grips with keeping them properly. its still very much a black art. rife with myth, misinformation and ignorance.

 

[sargie]

there are very few "tropical" fish who can live in that amount, well properly,(bettas being an exception) and no "temperate" that is commonly kept.

it scared the $hit out of me when i started to find the "true" volumes fish need. i have a 6 inch red tailed shark, that needs 50ukg min, and prefer 100g. unlike Goldfish, which are filthy, hence the water volume to process the muck, the Shark needs it for territory.

10g and they "grow to the size of the tank" are myths. they are peddled by LFS (fish shops) to make sales and perpetuated by those who don't research their hobby.(on offence to anyone here).
if you think its hard to find the correct volume your fish needs. try working out how much filtration you need. not only is it hard to pin down a "correct" amount. the info on the boxes of the gear you are buying, bares little, on no relevance to the flow you will get! that's probably why i find fishkeeping so much fun. 1000's of people keep them, but few get to grips with keeping them properly. its still very much a black art. rife with myth, misinformation and ignorance.

10 gallon per goldfish i meant.

I have a juwel rekord 60 which is 54 litres almost 15 gallons so i can't keep any tropical fish in there then?

My reults on practical fish keeping.
System type Tropical freshwater aquarium
Dimensions 61 x 31 x 36cm/24" x 12" x 14
Surface area 0.19 sqm/2.05 sq ft/ inches sq in
Volume 68 l./15 gal. (17.96 US gal.)
Probable volume 61 l./14 gal. (16 US gal.)
Stocking density 14"/36cm (built up gradually)

I cant have any big specimens in there but i can quite easily keep neons, guppies, cardinals, corydoras etc as long as i don't over stock.

 

[Firemouth]

10 gallon per goldfish i meant.

I have a juwel rekord 60 which is 54 litres almost 15 gallons so i can't keep any tropical fish in there then?

yep, i know what you meant.

in 15 gallons you could keep, say 6 rosy barbs. or say 10 tetras (rummynose or white tip). perhaps a BN (bristle nose pleco), and 6 of the tetra type. in short, very few fish are in that area. you can, of course, keep any fish in any tank. there is no law. you may well keep them for some time, but that does not exclude the fact that they could do better in more room. main problem with small tanks and fish, is keeping the water good. the fish may be happy, but the filter area and the circulation of water, do not process the waste in a efficient way. to make sure they do you need to increase filtration. doing this, in a small tank, leaves you with a whirl pool, as the water moves so fast, in relation to water volume, it blows the fish away. that's why you can keep far more than twice the fish in a 30gallon than in you could in a15 gallon.

why do they sell them then? coz people buy them. and most don't know enough or care enough(untill its too late) to find out.

the inch per fish rule is Pish, as most, experienced keepers know. the fish size is of little consequence (providing the tank is wider than the fish is long) its how much waste they make, and territory they need, that matters. when you read in PFK, always remember that they sell very few mags. all their income is from advertising. this makes them MOR, with advice. they just cant publish current theory. as it would make the sellers of gear look like, what they are. people selling stuff, not caring if it will do the job.

juwel sell their tanks complete (lol, thats a laf) filter heater ahd tank. the filter for their 180ltr tank is 600lph. in truth it flows less than 200lph that's 1. something turnover. (it also has no mechanical filtration). now even the most "careless" owner wants a minimum of 3x turnover. those with though go for 5x or more. yet they still sell the tank as ready to go. a look at the instructions is revealing. they state that the filter is for a "lightly" stocked "planted" tank. but you dont see that on the adverts, do you?

 

[sargie]

yep, i know what you meant.

in 15 gallons you could keep, say 6 rosy barbs. or say 10 tetras (rummynose or white tip). perhaps a BN (bristle nose pleco), and 6 of the tetra type. in short, very few fish are in that area. you can, of course, keep any fish in any tank. there is no law. you may well keep them for some time, but that does not exclude the fact that they could do better in more room. main problem with small tanks and fish, is keeping the water good. the fish may be happy, but the filter area and the circulation of water, do not process the waste in a efficient way. to make sure they do you need to increase filtration. doing this, in a small tank, leaves you with a whirl pool, as the water moves so fast, in relation to water volume, it blows the fish away. that's why you can keep far more than twice the fish in a 30gallon than in you could in a15 gallon.

why do they sell them then? coz people buy them. and most don't know enough or care enough(untill its too late) to find out.

I would agree with you when it comes to bio orbs or novelty fish tanks,but not juwel aquariums the rekord 60 is the smallest they sell, it is now rekord 600 it comes with an excellent filteration system which is more than adequate for the size.

Ofc the bigger the tank the better thats common sense.

I would not put a bristle nose in it would soon out grow my tank if you mean bristle nose catfish that is.

 

[Firemouth]

I would not put a bristle nose in it would soon out grow my tank if you mean bristle nose catfish that is.

at 4 inches, its hard to see how it would out grow the tank 4 inches is BIG for a BN pleco/catfish. they are as massy as "commons" though, so you can not afford to have too many fish in with it.

you clearly have your opinion on the usefulness of the juwel filters.( i guess i might if i still had one) but few if any, consider than efficient or excelent. indeed juewl themselves have an dodgy rep. their tanks split, their heaters stick on and they are massively under filtered. apart from that they are top!

 

[sargie]

at 4 inches, its hard to see how it would out grow the tank 4 inches is BIG for a BN pleco/catfish. they are as massy as "commons" though, so you can not afford to have too many fish in with it.

you clearly have your opinion on the usefulness of the juwel filters.( i guess i might if i still had one) but few if any, consider than efficient or excelent. indeed juewl themselves have an dodgy rep. their tanks split, their heaters stick on and they are massively under filtered. apart from that they are top!

lol ok m8 a friend of mines father is very good friends with a guy who built tanks for juwel in the uk he built them a custom 5 foot tank in their living room years ago.

Pleco's can grow huge and are heavy on the waste deposits or so i read over on practical fish keeping and monster fish keepers.

This is only what i have read or been advised by people who have kept fish far longer than i have. I used to keep them years ago but stopped after we moved house. I posted a thread on here a while back when i was looking for a new aquarium i went for the rekord 60 as it fit my requirements.

edit:Just done some research on the bristle nose pleco it only grows to 4" unlike most other pleco's but still requires a 30 gallon tank so my tank is too small.
http://www.funfishtank.com/2006/08/bristlenose-plecostomus/
It doesnt suprise me that you have a negative view on my experience or equipment you pick apart almost everything i ever post often labling me as somthing im not.

 

[benny59]

lol ok m8 a friend of mines father is very good friends with a guy who built tanks for juwel in the uk he built them a custom 5 foot tank in their living room years ago.

Pleco's can grow huge and are heavy on the waste deposits or so i read over on practical fish keeping and monster fish keepers.

This is only what i have read or been advised by people who have kept fish far longer than i have. I used to keep them years ago but stopped after we moved house. I posted a thread on here a while back when i was looking for a new aquarium i went for the rekord 60 as it fit my requirements.

edit:Just done some research on the bristle nose pleco it only grows to 4" unlike most other pleco's but still requires a 30 gallon tank so my tank is too small.
Bristlenose Plecostomus?Fish Tank | Tank of Fish
It doesnt suprise me that you have a negative view on my experience or equipment you pick apart almost everything i ever post often labling me as somthing im not.

yes m8 i had a pleco in a 7x2ft tank, got rid when it hit a foot long {and it was still growing}--------bought 2 oscars as a replacement. 1 lasted about 6 years when it died, the other 10............filtration for this tank was 2 giant fluvals

smaller 4ft tank running reverse flow filtration {had a good colourul mixture of fish in this}.............................had to get rid when the kids came along

 

[Mick]

I am building a 140 gallon setup which includes the sump.

What I read about fish is that its more important to have swimming space than volume, while volume of course is very important but certain types of fish like to swim, and with high tanks with no width you just do not get the distance they like to travel which will end up stressing them and bringing on whitespot.

Some pictures of the new tank being built 1st picture is the tank itself its a custom made acrylic to fit the wall next to our tv, 2nd picture is of the plumbing of the bottom where the two stand pipes enter the weir and the one on its own on the left is the return for the or6500 that will give me 5000 litres through the sump. 3rd picture is pretty much the same fellas.

Mickie

 

[sargie]

I am building a 140 gallon setup which includes the sump.

What I read about fish is that its more important to have swimming space than volume, while volume of course is very important but certain types of fish like to swim, and with high tanks with no width you just do not get the distance they like to travel which will end up stressing them and bringing on whitespot.

Some pictures of the new tank being built 1st picture is the tank itself its a custom made acrylic to fit the wall next to our tv, 2nd picture is of the plumbing of the bottom where the two stand pipes enter the weir and the one on its own on the left is the return for the or6500 that will give me 5000 litres through the sump. 3rd picture is pretty much the same fellas.

Mickie

Ive seen these acrylics with sumps over on MFK they look awesome when done. Whats the plan mickie are you going for a marine setup in there or freshwater? What type of species do you hope to keep.

 

[Firemouth]

lol ok m8 a friend of mines father is very good friends with a guy who built tanks for juwel in the uk he built them a custom 5 foot tank in their living room years ago.

Pleco's can grow huge and are heavy on the waste deposits or so i read over on practical fish keeping and monster fish keepers.

This is only what i have read or been advised by people who have kept fish far longer than i have. I used to keep them years ago but stopped after we moved house. I posted a thread on here a while back when i was looking for a new aquarium i went for the rekord 60 as it fit my requirements.

edit:Just done some research on the bristle nose pleco it only grows to 4" unlike most other pleco's but still requires a 30 gallon tank so my tank is too small.
Bristlenose Plecostomus?Fish Tank | Tank of Fish
It doesnt suprise me that you have a negative view on my experience or equipment you pick apart almost everything i ever post often labling me as somthing im not.

your a bit paranoid sargie, i post no differently with you, than anyone else. simply my style.

as for Juwel tanks i stand by my comments, Oh and their lights are known as a bit suspect too.
Plecos. i, honestly didn't need you to point out how big, some Plecos grow. of that i am fully aware. but as you point out, the BN, gets no more than 4 inches. so the validity of my knowledge is, in this case, proved. you, however, needed to look it up, and that's after you made a statement, claiming you had, enough, knowledge to, contradict what i said. as for the volume they need. that's where experience comes in. 15 g with larger filter area, not pump strength, seems to be an ok size for BN. though if you want a "community" tank, 30+g is a most. indeed a breeding couple can be kept in 20g. what the books say, and what, can, be done are often different.

i agree some fish need area to swim, some need it for territory and some need it coz they are filthy fish. only dirty fish need "pure" volume. the rest need area. a "common" pleco can reach 18-24 inches, it only needs volume for its waste and providing the tank is wider than the fish is long 4-5 foot long is big enough. but, lets say, a Bala shark needs area, not volume, as they are swimming machines. so 6-8 feet is a minimum, as they are shoaling fish, needing to be kept in 3's minimum, but the area needed goes up by very little.

ultimately you can keep fish how you like. and even keeping fish in "inappropriate" tanks does not mean you fish will die, though they will live shorter lives. you may not even notice your fish are stressed. its only when you graduate from someone who keeps fish, to a fishkeeper. that you begin to see what you can get away with and what you fish needs, are not always the same. as a fishkeeper, my job is to make an, unnatural, environment as healthy as possible. i don't always manage, but i try.

Oh dear, you are going to be upset, AGAIN. Juwel don't make "custom" tanks, not for customers anyway. and they make nothing in the uk. one of the main reasons the don't(make custom tanks), is nobody would buy them. there are many small firms that do custom tanks in the UK. all show much better Finnish and quality than any Juwel tank.all juwel tanks are made in Germany, or sourced from the far east. i guess there could be a small contractor in the UK, but not conected with tank building. as far as i know thy don't have an "official" office in the UK.

 

[Firemouth]

I am building a 140 gallon setup which includes the sump.

What I read about fish is that its more important to have swimming space than volume, while volume of course is very important but certain types of fish like to swim, and with high tanks with no width you just do not get the distance they like to travel which will end up stressing them and bringing on whitespot.

Some pictures of the new tank being built 1st picture is the tank itself its a custom made acrylic to fit the wall next to our tv, 2nd picture is of the plumbing of the bottom where the two stand pipes enter the weir and the one on its own on the left is the return for the or6500 that will give me 5000 litres through the sump. 3rd picture is pretty much the same fellas.

Mickie

I've just gone green!!!!!!!!!!!! thats nice. I'm assuming, by the plumbing, its Marine?

I'm not a marine man, so only have a, passing, knowledge. but as i understand it, width, in marine is a function of many of the fish being "shallow" water critters. i know one keeper with a 1500 gallon tank, its only 20 inches tall, so you need binoculars to see the other side. even so he has some form of shark 18-24 inches long, well several actually. its a Reef tank, and to be frank, looks amazing! just glad i don't have to look after it.

Whitespot in both marine and tropical is endemic. its appearance is, most often, down to stress (it seems there is some in, virtually, everybody's tank) it rears its ugly head when fish get "down" this affects their "slime" coat, allowing the parasite to gain a grip.

we had a constant battle with the tank i am trying to sell now. we only sorted it out when we started to do water changes with "adjusted" water. as opposed to adding water and sorting it out after. told you i wasn't a marine man! as for freshwater white spot, i couldn't say, i have never suffered any illness in my freshwater Fishkeeping time