Mugabe!

[jenreban]

So some sensible chat.......

If i read the news correctly tonight there is a European wide ban on Robert Mugabe travelling in Europe.
Yet today he sits in the vatican enjoying the popes first mass as he is a catholic!

Does this mean catholics are above the law?

It certainly seems that way!

Why isn't this dictator arrested and put on trial for the crimes he has been prevented to travelling to Europe for?

Why are so many catholic world leaders quite happy to sit with such dictators as Mugabe in the name of catholicism?

Why does the catholic church even want to associate themselves with such dictators??

The fact they do seems like they just want to stick two fingers up to the victims of Mugabe.

How anyone can follow a church that seems to support such dictators and some seriously depraved "OTHERS" just beggars belief.

The fact the media in this country has had nothing but new pope this/new pope that but fail to present a balanced story, tells me something is very wrong with this country.

Maybe others have different views, maybe some have similar.

Lets here them

 

[Him Her]

Vatican City is not part of the EU and Italy (which encloses it) does not prevent visitors from travelling onward. The Catholic Church has a policy of welcoming heads of state irrespective of any allegations. Your knowledge of Mugabe is based on media reports you otherwise accuse of imbalance - you have first-hand experience?

 

[CoolHandLuke]

I was always brought up as a child to know the biggest corrupt rouges/criminals in life was the church the politicians and the police, and guess what I still believe it, they constantly prove it them selves, there's always another scandal in the paper's to confirm it.

I believe in science and nature and evolution, I do not believe in some great religion that there main objective is power money and child abuse.

I know the police are corrupt through my own experience's, and I know the politicians stick with the rich and rob the poor average man.

No offense to anyone that is any of the above category's we were just born on different sides of life. :0)

 

[shaun127]

I have 1st hand experience of this horrible evil man, I hope he dies a slow painful horrible death and I will enjoy every minute.

 

[Firemouth]

Vatican City is not part of the EU and Italy (which encloses it) does not prevent visitors from travelling onward. The Catholic Church has a policy of welcoming heads of state irrespective of any allegations. Your knowledge of Mugabe is based on media reports you otherwise accuse of imbalance - you have first-hand experience?

if he had travelled on to another country by air, I'd agree. but he had to travel by car through the EU, to get to the Vatican.
he should then have been arrested and deported immediately.
of course the Catholic church welcome tyrants, its a tyranny itself.

I'm unsure its the OP that has an imbalanced view here.

 

[Him Her]

I'm unsure its the OP that has an imbalanced view here.

I didn't express a view? The OP raised questions and I answered some.

The Italians regard travel to/from Vatican City as untouchable irrespective of the means used. So, he could have hopped a bus at Rome airport for all they care. The Italian authorities would take steps to prevent any such interference.

Mugabe is not generally disliked in Italy and many African nations regard him as a powerful leader, although that is unlikely to be reported in the media.

Now, you can disagree with any or all of this but the facts remain.

 

[jenreban]

A few interesting points but look at it from another angle.

Why would a church whose name is mud even to many of it's congregation want to be associated with someone like Mugabe just because he practices that religion?
That to me tells me that the catholic church is quite happy to accept anyone as long as they follow the faith!
Very wrong in my opinion.

I don't know Mugabe personally but have spoken first hand to people who had to leave zimbabwe with nothing and in fear of their lives.

I am no fan of the catholic church, in fact you might brand me a bigot but i look at my partner who is catholic and lives daily with guilt inflicted from her parents due to their faith and it is wrong.
In fact i would say that it is inhuman as far as i believe the meaning of the word to be, in what these people are put through and it starts from early age and right through schooling to adult life.

I was brought up christian but as i have grown up and became free thinking i have realised that "all" religion is holding back the human race from becoming something magnificent.
The catholic church just seems to want to drag humanity back to the dark ages, maybe as they had real power then!

 

[gooner71]

Jenreban - it seems your biggest problem is not Mugabe, as your post title suggests, but it seems you have used his appearance in Rome to launch a thinly veiled attack on the catholic church?

I will deal with the "Mugabe" point first. I don't know either way whether he is a terrible leader or a hero of the africans but if there is a debate to be had it should be seen from both sides. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that. It is no secret that the larger european nations colonised africa and elsewhere, often with terrible cruelty, the dictators that have taken over from these white colonists may not be much better but at least they are indigenous and are in essence controlling their own peoples destiny. Remember they are at an earlier stage of self rule than us in the west after years of control. Think of how britain was ruled only a hundred years ago with people being hung drawn and quartered etc. Probably as barbaric as anything in africa now?

Onto the catholic church. I am a catholic, not a fanatical one but a catholic all the same. My children also attend catholic schools.

I find it really offensive that you find some correlation with anyone attending a mass being supported by the church? By your reasoning anyone committing a crime would never be allowed back to church? But isn't forgiveness a fundamental teaching of all christian religion? As for Mugabe, he has only been tried in the court of western public opinion so hasn't officially even committed a crime. Most western democracies separate state and religion so surely you cant expect a religious entity like the catholic church to make a political decision and ban someone on political grounds?

You seem very quick to condemn religion and blame it for perpetual guilt amongst catholics and holding back the human race? I am pretty sure the world would be a very different place right now without religion. Hundreds of years ago, when the majority of the people were uneducated and illiterate there needed to be a means of instilling right from wrong - the commandments whether you believe they were ordained from God or just created as a means of control were a good idea. The bible stories are mostly just a way of showing people how to be good to each other and how to live a better life. Forget the miracles and all that just take the moral stories and its more of a guide to life. This guilt you speak of, i guess thats the old nonsense about sex etc. Ok so perhaps you might see it as puritanical but if you see the way people are free and easy these days then perhaps a little more guilt might slow them down a bit? It cant be right that young girls of 21 have slept with hundreds of men, would you want to marry that girl?

I should add that i dont have a problem with atheists - I can completely understand the idea of how God and all religion being made up but many use it as an excuse to live a completely hedonistic lifestyle with no regard for anyone else or the consequences of their actions. Thats infinitely more dangerous than any religion. If we truly wish to live in an enlighted world we still need some form of morality or we end up like the roman empire. So engrossed in drinking alcohol and sex with anything that moved that they lost a grip of power and were overtaken.

Just a quick edit as I finally noticed your avatar and then realised your real motives.I should have known that only a Gers fan could spout so much hatred towards the catholic church without any foundation.

 

[Him Her]

Started well, ended badly...

 

[Abu Baniaz]

There is a reason while Religious talk is not allowed on the forum.

 

[gooner71]

Started well, ended badly...

perhaps - opinions vary but bigotry has no place. If you mean my reference to the Gers - its not a football thing but a reaction to how Catholics were and still are treated in Scotland and Northern Ireland and then these people wonder why people like Mugabe grab power when the can and drive their former masters out of their lands???

 

[Him Her]

I had to look 'gers' up because I'm not really a football fan, I confess I know little about how Catholics are treated because I'm not a religion fan either.

I would guess Mugabe is popular in Zimbabwe BECAUSE he drove the former masters out...better a b*stard on your side than on someone else's perhaps?

 

[gooner71]

Absolutely correct - Mugabe may or may not be a great leader or a despot - I don't know but perhaps he is a little of both.

My point is that the op used Mugabe as a way to slag off the catholic church by inferring that his presence in the Vatican meant the church was supporting him?

Opinion is based on facts as they are perceived by the individual - if for example a gay man condemns the catholic church because of its stance on homosexual relations then even the most ardent catholic has to say ok, you are entitled to your opinion. But, when someone randomly connects two unconnected things to try and make a point you have to ask yourself what their motive is. Unfortunately, as with most things, peoples true colours show through at some point. With this poster it is clear that his vitriol against the catholic church is born out of the catholic/protestant feud in scotland/northern ireland.

The sad thing is his final point about religion holding back humanity could have some merit in modern society if only people could live a more moral life. If he really wants to target religion perhaps a look at some of the more extreme religions that really are living in the dark ages.

 

[Him Her]

There is a reason while Religious talk is not allowed on the forum.

In a serious thread it's important to look at many things. Religious talk should be okay provided different factions debate rather than slag one another off surely? I'm not a supporter of religion but I am interested in religious views.

How religion affects people's perspective is worthy of discussion, I'm sure mods will cull posts that are clearly not debate?

 

[wiz569]

Moved in here,let's see how it goes,but please no personal attacks

 

[gooner71]

In a serious thread it's important to look at many things. Religious talk should be okay provided different factions debate rather than slag one another off surely? I'm not a supporter of religion but I am interested in religious views.

How religion affects people's perspective is worthy of discussion, I'm sure mods will cull posts that are clearly not debate?

i agree - all social factors shape the way we live and are worthy of discussion.

Most religions seem to be formed on a basis of peace yet is blamed for violence and killing. Take catholic/protestant troubles - they actually share well over 99% religious beliefs - the small differences are negligible really but look at the troubles in ireland. I believe its not so much religion but peoples geography - jews and muslims in the middle east are the same ethnic group essentially but are different religions and even different sects within their respective religions depending on where they live. In essence Muslims fight other Muslims the way Christians fight other Christians - its not religion !!

 

[danforth]

Before this thread got diverted, the question in the first part of the OP hasn't really been addressed.

If travel, via an EU country, to a non EU state is permitted, what is the point in an EU travel ban ?

I can't think of a UK parallel here, anyone else ?

 

[Him Her]

Relax Wiz - we're moving back on thread

Glad you raised that Danforth - we started moving the wrong way there.

The Italians believe anyone should be free to come to mass at Vatican City. I believe that there's a treaty that agrees this from anywhere within Italy? That means that anyone can fly to, say, Rome and will be permitted to travel on to Vatican City unrestricted.

In answer to the OP original post, that would mean the Vatican is operating within the law.

Going back to the OP on the Catholic Church welcoming dictators, I would argue it's more about ANY church being unwilling to ban believers because a third party disagrees with their activities? My knowledge of religion is limited but don't all religions suggest the 'higher power' is the judge rather than lowly instrument on Earth?

Finally, perhaps the OP should answer before we shoot everyone else

 

[gooner71]

Before this thread got diverted, the question in the first part of the OP hasn't really been addressed.

If travel, via an EU country, to a non EU state is permitted, what is the point in an EU travel ban ?

I can't think of a UK parallel here, anyone else ?

You wont find a parallel as its a unique situation - Vatican City is a separate autonomous country within Rome. It isn't and cant be part of the EU but because of the uniqueness of its geography it would be impossible for anyone visiting to completely bypass EU land. It would probably create a massive legal wrangle if Mugabe were to be snatched on Italian soil whilst travelling to the vatican and as we in the west like to do things properly any case against him would likely be thrown out of court and jeopardise any hope of securing a conviction?

 

[gooner71]

Moving the wrong way - i think the thread was moving in exactly the right way - The OP seemed to care less about why Mugabe wasnt arrested and more intent on bemoaning catholics.

These are his questions:- (and my direct repsponses to each point)


Does this mean catholics are above the law? No, the law is the law. EU travel ban means he cant travel to an EU country - Vatican City isnt part of the EU and cant be reached without crossing the EU (see my previous post for legal stuff)


Why isn't this dictator arrested and put on trial for the crimes he has been prevented to travelling to Europe for? Im sure if he was visiting an EU state he would be arrested?

Why are so many catholic world leaders quite happy to sit with such dictators as Mugabe in the name of catholicism? They were happy to go to the first mass of the new pope - the fact that Mugabe was there is of no concern to them. Im sure the world leaders can address political differences at the UN rather than at a mass?

Why does the catholic church even want to associate themselves with such dictators?? I dont think the catholic church wants to associate itself with dictators but they cant stop a dictator being a catholic?

The fact they do seems like they just want to stick two fingers up to the victims of Mugabe. Pure speculation and i doubt supporting or show support for Mugabe was on any agenda?

How anyone can follow a church that seems to support such dictators and some seriously depraved "OTHERS" just beggars belief. Henry 8th chopped off his wifes head - how can anyone follow a church founded by someone who did that (CofE) - what nonsense I know plenty of perfectly reasonable protestants???