Another "Fit to Work" Death.

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When are the Government going to realise that the assessment system and ATOS "Medicals" are not fit for purpose ?

A double lung and heart transplant patient told she was 'fit to work' by Government assessors died nine days after her benefits were stopped.
The former council worker suffered from regular blackouts and was on 10 prescription medications a day
She was told her benefits were being stopped as she lay dying in hospital.

Her husband Peter, 50, said: 'I sat there and listened to my wife drown in her own body fluids. It took half an hour for her to die; a woman who is apparently fit for work.'
He described the last few months of his wife’s life as 'a misery', saying that she worried constantly about her benefit payments and worried that she would be seen as 'a scrounger'.
Mr Wootton said: 'I do not know how, or if, it will change the system, but at least we can show the population what people like Linda have to go through at the hands of these people.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-days-benefits-stopped-declared-fit-work.html

This is a National Disgrace !!!!!
 
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How much longer is this crap going to go on?. A simple read of this Womans medical notes was more than enough evidence to prove she was unfit for work. Once again another life is taken thanks to Cameron and this incompetent Goverment. My deepest sympathy is sent to family and friends of this poor unfotunate Woman. :(
 
Some of the questions Mrs Wootton is likely to have been asked by Atos:

Do you read the paper?
Do you live alone or with someone?
Do you have children?
Do you watch TV?
How did you get here today?
Do you do your own shopping?
How often do you see a doctor?
How often do you see a nurse?
What time do you get up?
Can you get washed?
Can you get dressed?
Do you cook?
Do you have hallucinations?
Have you ever hurt yourself?
What is 100 minus 25?
Can you spell 'world'?
What is 96 minus 7?
Can you name the current Prime Minister?
Can you name the President of the U.S.?
Do you drink alcohol?
How is your temper?
Do you listen to music?
Do you have a mobile phone?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-fit-work.html
 
problem for the people who really need to claim disability benefits is the number of people who don't need to claim it is fooking it up for everyone
 
Some of the questions Mrs Wootton is likely to have been asked by Atos:

Do you read the paper?
Do you live alone or with someone?
Do you have children?
Do you watch TV?
How did you get here today?
Do you do your own shopping?
How often do you see a doctor?
How often do you see a nurse?
What time do you get up?
Can you get washed?
Can you get dressed?
Do you cook?
Do you have hallucinations?
Have you ever hurt yourself?
What is 100 minus 25?
Can you spell 'world'?
What is 96 minus 7?
Can you name the current Prime Minister?
Can you name the President of the U.S.?
Do you drink alcohol?
How is your temper?
Do you listen to music?
Do you have a mobile phone?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-fit-work.html

Please PM correct answers, some of the questions are confusing ;)
 
problem for the people who really need to claim disability benefits is the number of people who don't need to claim it is fooking it up for everyone

It's a small number, is that any excuse for causing the death of anyone ?
Because have no doubt about it these assessments are the cause of many of these deaths, the worry and strain of these assessments to someone who is already not well is immense and the fact that your integrity and that of your GP and/or Hospital Consultant is questioned is just another kick in the teeth to your self esteem.
Why is the word of an ATOS "professional" who may not even have any medical training and then the opinion of a DWP Decision Maker who definitely doesn't have any medical knowledge take precedence over qualified medical people who have been dealing with the patient ?
 
It's a small number, is that any excuse for causing the death of anyone ?
Because have no doubt about it these assessments are the cause of many of these deaths, the worry and strain of these assessments to someone who is already not well is immense and the fact that your integrity and that of your GP and/or Hospital Consultant is questioned is just another kick in the teeth to your self esteem.
Why is the word of an ATOS "professional" who may not even have any medical training and then the opinion of a DWP Decision Maker who definitely doesn't have any medical knowledge take precedence over qualified medical people who have been dealing with the patient ?

the new system is far from perfect but the old system was just as broken. I can't believe that 3.2 MILLION people where claiming disability living allowance prior to the change.

Disability benefits treble in 20yrs. Annual bill is £13bn. 3,226,790 claim | The Sun |News|Politics
 
It's a small number, is that any excuse for causing the death of anyone ?
Because have no doubt about it these assessments are the cause of many of these deaths, the worry and strain of these assessments to someone who is already not well is immense and the fact that your integrity and that of your GP and/or Hospital Consultant is questioned is just another kick in the teeth to your self esteem.
Why is the word of an ATOS "professional" who may not even have any medical training and then the opinion of a DWP Decision Maker who definitely doesn't have any medical knowledge take precedence over qualified medical people who have been dealing with the patient ?

I keep hearing "it's a small number", and I'm inclined to agree, though I have no idea how "small" the number is.
However, disabled people have enough problems, without added financial stress.

I can see the need for assessment if the "system" is abused (and what isn't), but they seem to starting without much thought.
There must be obvious examples at each end, so why not assess the grey areas first, and see which way that leads ?
Start with "depression", or similar. Aren't we all depressed, given the current circumstances ?

The list of questions depressed me, a lot of my answers would be "sometimes", so what would that mean to ATOS ?
In any case, it appears ATOS "professionals" are recruited from G4S rejects. After all this, I wonder where the "balance sheet" will be buried.
 
Just to make something clear here before I respond, I don't work for ATOS and have no affiliation to them, but I have worked on central/local government projects so understand the back end and (some of) the politics and how the processes work, and just how misguided things can become.

I'm pretty sure ATOS are not to blame here, they will have a set of stringent criteria that will be set by the likes of the DWP, which will then go through some form of controlled process. Questions like above (no matter how absurd) will simply be filtered into ATOS (as a private organisation) from others. If people really think these are ATOS people that are making decisions then they are completely mistaken. There will be back end processes, checks, reviews (with medical professionals if required) before any decision on paper is made. Granted those decisions are made purely on a paper based decision, but I would has at a guess there is also some automated procedure that adds no weight because it's criteria are based on responses to the above. Those responses will also have markings/weightings and form some kind of "points" system that says you are or are not suitable.

Liken it if you will to the restaurant waitress serving your food. It arrives at your table not at all as you would like it, presented poorly and leaving a bitter taste, is it the waitresses fault although you vent your anger and frustration on her, or is it the guy hidden away in the background cooking the meal that never faces off to the customer and is blissfully unaware of the complaint.....

So, it's the process that is wrong, the decision makers at the back end or those that agreed the criteria. Not those that have to implement what is in place.
 
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Just to make something clear here before I respond, I don't work for ATOS and have no affiliation to them, but I have worked on central/local government projects so understand the back end and (some of) the politics and how the processes work, and just how misguided things can become.

I'm pretty sure ATOS are not to blame here, they will have a set of stringent criteria that will be set by the likes of the DWP, which will then go through some form of controlled process. Questions like above (no matter how absurd) will simply be filtered into ATOS (as a private organisation) from others. If people really think these are ATOS people that are making decisions then they are completely mistaken. There will be back end processes, checks, reviews (with medical professionals if required) before any decision on paper is made. Granted those decisions are made purely on a paper based decision, but I would has at a guess there is also some automated procedure that adds no weight because it's criteria are based on responses to the above. Those responses will also have markings/weightings and form some kind of "points" system that says you are or are not suitable.

Liken it if you will to the restaurant waitress serving your food. It arrives at your table not at all as you would like it, presented poorly and leaving a bitter taste, is it the waitresses fault although you vent your anger and frustration on her, or is it the guy hidden away in the background cooking the meal that never faces off to the customer and is blissfully unaware of the complaint.....

So, it's the process that is wrong, the decision makers at the back end or those that agreed the criteria. Not those that have to implement what is in place.

Fair comment.

However, ATOS is not doing market research, or an opinon poll.
It depends to what extent they record a qualifed answer to the questions, and I suggest there is a time/profit factor.
"Do you drink alchohol", or "do you listen to music" are prime examples that need expansion.

If you take the job, be prepared to take the flak as well. "Just following orders" doesn't go down too well.
Another factor, a contractor who doesn't produce the required result, probably won't get another contract.
A more targeted approach would been far better, but I doubt anyone will want to admit choosing the current course.

I think the "guy" might have an inkling by now.:)
 
the new system is far from perfect but the old system was just as broken. I can't believe that 3.2 MILLION people where claiming disability living allowance prior to the change.

Disability benefits treble in 20yrs. Annual bill is £13bn. 3,226,790 claim | The Sun |News|Politics

From the Sun,
"Many get the benefit by simply filling in a form and there are virtually no checks to see if existing claimants are still eligible."

Bullshit !! nothing more to be said about that statement.

"He wants to scrap DLA and replace it with Personal Independence Payments. His new system would make sure all new applicants are examined by a doctor. Existing claimants would also face checks-ups to make sure they are still eligible — or need more help"

So is this suggesting that GPs are not doctors ? and I certainly know that if IDS means the ATOS "professionals" then many of them are not doctors and in fact some have no medical or health and wellbeing qualifications at all, so that makes his statement complete bollocks.

"Stats show 21,350 received DLA at the end of last year because they are alcoholics or junkies — up by 2,000 in just 12 months."

If the government (and I don't just mean the present miscreants) provided proper treatment and places on de-tox programmes instead of providing them with extra money to fund their habits they would not be worsening their conditions and thus entitling them to even larger DLA benefits.
 
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Just to make something clear here before I respond, I don't work for ATOS and have no affiliation to them, but I have worked on central/local government projects so understand the back end and (some of) the politics and how the processes work, and just how misguided things can become.

I'm pretty sure ATOS are not to blame here, they will have a set of stringent criteria that will be set by the likes of the DWP, which will then go through some form of controlled process. Questions like above (no matter how absurd) will simply be filtered into ATOS (as a private organisation) from others. If people really think these are ATOS people that are making decisions then they are completely mistaken. There will be back end processes, checks, reviews (with medical professionals if required) before any decision on paper is made. Granted those decisions are made purely on a paper based decision, but I would has at a guess there is also some automated procedure that adds no weight because it's criteria are based on responses to the above. Those responses will also have markings/weightings and form some kind of "points" system that says you are or are not suitable.

Liken it if you will to the restaurant waitress serving your food. It arrives at your table not at all as you would like it, presented poorly and leaving a bitter taste, is it the waitresses fault although you vent your anger and frustration on her, or is it the guy hidden away in the background cooking the meal that never faces off to the customer and is blissfully unaware of the complaint.....

So, it's the process that is wrong, the decision makers at the back end or those that agreed the criteria. Not those that have to implement what is in place.

You are 100% correct with your prognosis of the situation. You are correct about the criteria set by DWP, you are correct about the questions asked by ATOS being set by DWP, you are correct about automated procedure, weighted marking and points system and paper based decisions.
But people are angry with ATOS because they are a private company making vast profits by treating people with complete apathy and disrespect and of actually lying in their reports back to DWP just so they can meet the targets set them by DWP, which they even have the gall to deny.
 
Fair comment.

However, ATOS is not doing market research, or an opinon poll.

Why should they, it's not within their remit to do so unless instructed or requested by the DWP? and even then there is likely to be a exercise and agreement within their internal change process and whether there is an commercial, technical or other cost implications. It would all be effort related and need to be signed off. What happens if ATOS suggest it, but DWP don't want to pay or the price is two high to make it commercially viable.

You are 100% correct with your prognosis of the situation. You are correct about the criteria set by DWP, you are correct about the questions asked by ATOS being set by DWP, you are correct about automated procedure, weighted marking and points system and paper based decisions.
But people are angry with ATOS because they are a private company making vast profits by treating people with complete apathy and disrespect and of actually lying in their reports back to DWP just so they can meet the targets set them by DWP, which they even have the gall to deny.

I know this isn't an excuse, but part of the whole issue here is the privatisaion part. At the end of the day ATOS are a business and the bottom line is they are in it for the profit, it's the only reason they are in the arena or taking on government contracts. I can't obviously speak personally over their direct treatment of people per se as I've never experienced it, but most of the time all (the ATOS) side can look at are a) the results or b) what is written on a screen in front of them.

I have to be careful what I say here but, again the company i work for had also at some point been up in front of the Public Accounts Committee, in fact so much so it's something that is vehemently avoided because the lines of questioning are always geared towards "blame" or indeed questioning why the private company didn't challenge or seek advice, question or escalate issues past the governing body, in this case the DWP.

The other issue is DWP have no measure to make against any of it, so how can they say 100% effectively ATOS are right or wrong.

The Rt Hon Margaret Hodge MP, Chair of the Committee of Public Accounts, today said:

“The Department for Work and Pensions is getting far too many decisions wrong on claimants’ ability to work. This is at considerable cost to the taxpayer and can create misery and hardship to the claimants themselves.

This poor decision-making is damaging public confidence and generating a lot of criticism of the Department’s contractor for medical assessments, Atos Healthcare – but most of the problems lie firmly within the DWP.

The Department’s view that appeals against decisions are an inherent part of the process is unduly complacent. Nearly 40 per cent of appeals are successful, with a third of those successful appeals involving no new evidence.

The Work Capability Assessment process hits the most vulnerable claimants hardest. The one size fits all approach fails to account adequately for mental health conditions or those which are rare or fluctuating. While the Department has started to improve, the process is still too inflexible and too often is so stressful for applicants that their health simply gets worse.

A key problem is that the Department has been unable to create a competitive market for medical assessment providers, leaving Atos in the position of being a near monopoly supplier.

The Department is too often just accepting what Atos tells it. It seems reluctant to challenge the contractor. It has failed to withhold payment for poor performance and rarely checked that it is being correctly charged. The Department also cannot explain how the profits being made by Atos reflect the limited risk that it bears.

There needs to be a substantial shake-up in how the Department manages this contract and in its processes for improving the quality of decision making.”

Margaret Hodge was speaking as the Committee published its 23rd Report of this Session which, on the basis of evidence from Citizens Advice, Disability UK and the Department for Work and Pensions, examined the contract management of medical services.

The Department for Work and Pensions (the Department) relies on medical assessments to help its decision makers reach an appropriate decision on a claimant’s entitlement to a range of benefits. Work Capability Assessments are used to assess new applications for Employment and Support Allowance and to reassess existing recipients of Incapacity Benefit. This is damaging public confidence and generating much criticism of ATOS, but most of the problems lie firmly within the DWP. The Department has outsourced this work since 1998 and in 2011-12 paid its contractor, Atos Healthcare, £112.4 million to carry out 738,000 assessments. From April 2013, a new medical assessment will be introduced for the Personal Independence Payment.

The Work Capability Assessment process is designed to support a fair and objective decision by the Department about whether a claimant is fit for work, but in far too many cases the Department is getting these decisions wrong at considerable cost to both the taxpayer and the claimant. The Department’s decisions were overturned in 38% of appeals, casting doubt on the accuracy of its decision-making.

Poor decision-making causes claimants considerable distress, and the position appears to be getting worse, with Citizens Advice reporting an 83% increase in the number of people asking for support on appeals in the last year alone. We found the Department to be unduly complacent about the number of decisions upheld by the tribunal and believe that the Department should ensure that its processes are delivering accurate decision-making and minimising distress to claimants.

The Work Capability Assessment process has a disproportionate impact on the most vulnerable claimants. The standardised “tick-box” approach fails to adequately account for rare, variable or mental health conditions and this can lead to greater inaccuracies in decision-making for these particular claimant groups. We welcome the efforts made to improve the process and encourage the Department to continue to review the operation of the work capability assessment for vulnerable groups.

The Department does not know the full cost of the overall decision-making process. Its processes have financial effects across government, for example, in the National Health Service, and high levels of appeals increase the Department’s own administrative costs yet it has not assessed the overall cost to the taxpayer. Without this information the Department will be unable to assess the value for money of its decision-making processes.

The Department is currently dependent on one supplier to undertake all medical assessments. In the 14 years since the service was outsourced, the Department has never awarded the contract to a new supplier; it has only ever changed hands due to a company takeover. The inability of the Department to develop a competitive market for medical assessment providers has left it vulnerable, with limited leverage to remedy poor performance.

The Department is not using all the mechanisms it has at its disposal to manage the contract for medical assessments effectively. We saw no evidence that the Department was applying sufficient rigour or challenge to ATOS given the vulnerability of many of its clients, the size of the contracts and its role as a near monopoly supplier. We are concerned that the profitability of the contract may be disproportionate to the limited risks which the contractor bears.

The Department’s evidence was not always consistent with the views expressed by our other witnesses. We heard different interpretations of statistics such as the proportion of successful appeals, the accuracy of decision-making and on whether overall contract performance is improving.

As a result the Committee was unable to arrive at a clear conclusion about whether the overall performance is improving and we recommend that the National Audit Office should provide a further report focussing on up-to-date performance data.
 
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Why should they, it's not within their remit to do so unless instructed or requested by the DWP? and even then there is likely to be a exercise and agreement within their internal change process and whether there is an commercial, technical or other cost implications. It would all be effort related and need to be signed off. What happens if ATOS suggest it, but DWP don't want to pay or the price is two high to make it commercially viable.

I presume danforth was being sarcastic and meant with questions like that you would think they were doing an opinion poll not messing with peoples lives?
 
How much longer is this crap going to go on?. A simple read of this Womans medical notes was more than enough evidence to prove she was unfit for work. Once again another life is taken thanks to Cameron and this incompetent Goverment. My deepest sympathy is sent to family and friends of this poor unfotunate Woman. :(

I've been through this too Steve, I got sent to one in Glasgow after my accident which resulted in me needing my 2 knee replacements done and they told me I was fit to work even though I had serious knee troubles and that I could still jump in and out of trucks!!!

I put my big 13's down firmly and appealed against them and won.

ATOS and the others haven't got a clue. I got interviewed by a guy who used to be a nurse and yet he along with the board over ruled a Orthopedic Surgeon for Gods sake!

As my Consultant said to me these people work for ATOS because they can't hack it in the NHS and they see they easy money.

ATOS should be banned from this country and sent back to France and Ian Duncan Smith should be ashamed of him and his government.
 
I've been through this too Steve, I got sent to one in Glasgow after my accident which resulted in me needing my 2 knee replacements done and they told me I was fit to work even though I had serious knee troubles and that I could still jump in and out of trucks!!!

I put my big 13's down firmly and appealed against them and won.

ATOS and the others haven't got a clue. I got interviewed by a guy who used to be a nurse and yet he along with the board over ruled a Orthopedic Surgeon for Gods sake!

As my Consultant said to me these people work for ATOS because they can't hack it in the NHS and they see they easy money.

ATOS should be banned from this country and sent back to France and Ian Duncan Smith should be ashamed of him and his government.

Good for you mate a happy ending at last, but you shouldn't have to fight for your rights mate when the evidence is quite plainly under there noses. I am sick to death of seeing people with sod all wrong with them milking the system. They have there posh brand new mobility cars, park in disabled bays and come out of shops walking with a mountain of food. If these people are that disabled why have they not got anyone with them to help?. The whole system stinks and once again the genuine claimants have to pay the price.
 
Good for you mate a happy ending at last, but you shouldn't have to fight for your rights mate when the evidence is quite plainly under there noses. I am sick to death of seeing people with sod all wrong with them milking the system. They have there posh brand new mobility cars, park in disabled bays and come out of shops walking with a mountain of food. If these people are that disabled why have they not got anyone with them to help?. The whole system stinks and once again the genuine claimants have to pay the price.

Agreed mate.
 
ATOS should be banned from this country and sent back to France and Ian Duncan Smith should be ashamed of him and his government.

I guess this is my point and why people will generally skip over the reality to what they read in the press or gossip from someone that hasn't got a clue. People only see the front end not what happens in the background, so naturally blame someone that isn't wholly to blame.
 
Agreed mate.

Why?

...but you shouldn't have to fight for your rights mate...

Isn't that a tad inconsistent with...

... I am sick to death of seeing people with sod all wrong with them milking the system...

Don't forget the easiest way of finding out how big a slap gets someone pissed is to slap them...

;)
 
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