7/7 debate

[hamba]

In order for these theories to have any real foundation in fact it would have to mean that all the established and respected western journalists were in on it. Not to mention the major philosophers, historians, academics, politicians, etc.

 

[MH]

I also believe in 23/7

 

[gritz]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWoS2N7G5G4[/ame]

 

[gritz]

In order for these theories to have any real foundation in fact it would have to mean that all the established and respected western journalists were in on it. Not to mention the major philosophers, historians, academics, politicians, etc.

as far as i know it was reuters that broke the news that wtc7 had collapsed, all it would take is somebody at ground zero to mistakenly report it had fallen (unlikely) more likely whorever reported it at ground zero was involved and pressed the send text button on his phone a little prematurely and within minutes or even seconds that breaking news would have been sent out to all the networks and ten minutes later when people at reuters start realising its still there the boss isnt going to tell his staff to issue a statement saying it was a mistake especialy if he knows its really going to happen,of course this is assumption on my part.

 

[gritz]

I also believe in 23/7

lol it took me atleast ten mins to figure that out

 

[gritz]

http://www.wanttoknow.info/010920globe

 

[hamba]

as far as i know it was reuters that broke the news that wtc7 had collapsed, all it would take is somebody at ground zero to mistakenly report it had fallen (unlikely) more likely whorever reported it at ground zero was involved and pressed the send text button on his phone a little prematurely and within minutes or even seconds that breaking news would have been sent out to all the networks and ten minutes later when people at reuters start realising its still there the boss isnt going to tell his staff to issue a statement saying it was a mistake especialy if he knows its really going to happen,of course this is assumption on my part.

So are you saying that the people I mentioned, in my last post, are involved in the conspiracy or just not as clever as the conspiracy theorists?

 

[mozr]

Here goes

I just thought I'd put together some known facts about 9/11. These are not rumours or speculation or 'conspiracy

nut' ravings. These are verifiable facts:

9/11 Facts (in no particular order):

FACT: The FBI holds Osama Bin Laden on its Most Wanted list, but not for 9/11. They say there isn't enough

evidence to connect OBL with the September 11th attacks.

So? Seriously, how does this implicate the US government?

FACT: The 9/11 Commission report and the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) reports state that

the WTC towers collapsed due to fire, not due to impact damage from the aircraft. No steel-framed skyscraper has

completely collapsed due to fire before or since.

No other skyscraper has been hit with a plane of that size, with that amount of fuel on board, therefore all your doing is speculating. The architects of 9/11 group has also been discredited, for instance on the recent BBC documentary.

FACT: The Twin Towers were massively over-engineered. They were built to withstand multiple impacts from jet

airliners. They were built to withstand hurricane force winds. Each floor was designed to hold at least ten times

the weight of people standing shoulder to shoulder across each floor's square acre of space.

This one is easy. Just as they cannot understand why they fell so quickly, they did not know how strong they were making them. In good faith civil engineers and architects have designed a building to be strong, and are now puzzled why it fell. Most people are left puzzled, conspiracy theorists believe it points to plot because they have to make sense of the world, and cannot admit to not 'knowing' something.

FACT: According to the NIST report, most of the jet fuel from the impacts ignited outside the buildings and the

jet fuel inside only burned for a few minutes.

Listen to Dr. Sunder of NIST explain why what you are talking about is utter crap

FACT: Reports of burning jet fuel coming down the elevator shafts into the lobbies are fallacious. In each

building, only one elevator, the service elevator, went from bottom to top. The rest of the elevators were

staggered. The service elevator shafts had no burning jet fuel pouring down them, as survivors were inside them at

the time of the impacts.

This is a 'straw man' argument. When has fuel been mentioned on here? Is the lack of fuel inside the 'core' (where the elevators were located) indicative of a government plot? No.

FACT: Despite the 'raging inferno' that softened the steel support beams inside the towers, people were seen and

photographed standing in the holes left by the aircraft.

Lets see some pictures please, with back up links. Again, what does that prove? Are you saying that the entry point would not have been hot? You have just said the jet fuel exploded on impact outside the building (which I don't believe). Again what does people being able to stand and be photographed inside the holes? That everything was fine, until the government detonated the Thermite? yeah, ah k.

FACT: Head of the Pakistani ISI, Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad, ordered $100,000 be wired to alleged 9/11 ringleader,

Mohammed Atta. On the morning of 9/11, Ahmad was having a breakfast meeting in Washington DC with Rep. Porter

Goss, Sen. Bob Graham and other members of the House Intelligence Committee.

[/quote]

Evidence please. you cannot just shout 'FACT'.

FACT: Israeli internet messaging firm, Odigo, says two of its employees were warned of the 'attack' two hours

before the first impact.

Nostradmus told us hundreds of years ago. Why didn't we listen? Oh, and if a terrorist cell plots an attack sometimes information leaks. how you tie that into a US govt plot I don't know.

FACT: When all commercial air traffic was grounded over the US following 9/11, one plane was allowed to leave the

US, carrying the Bin Laden family.

I agree with this one. It it unseemly and has never really been explained away to my satisfaction. Still doesn't prove a US plot though.

FACT: On September 10th, 2001, San Francisco mayor, Willie Brown, was warned not to fly to New York on 9/11.

So?

FACT: Several top military officers were due to attend a meeting in New York on 9/11, At the last minute, they

cancelled.

A meeting was cancelled?! **** me!

FACT: Author, Salman Rushdie, was prevented from flying to the US on 9/11 after warnings from US officials.

So you do not think that things like this happen every day?

FACT: President Bush's cousin, Jim Pierce, was due to attend a meeting at the WTC on 9/11. The location of the

meeting was suddenly changed to the Millennium Hotel because 'the group was too large'.

A meeting was moved!? **** me!

FACT: Several business leaders who would normally have been at the WTC on 9/11 just happened to be at a meeting

with Warren Buffett at Offutt Air Force Base that day.

So?

FACT: NYC firefighters reported over the radio just before the 'collapse' that they had the fires contained and

needed only two lines to deal with them.

So in the panic and chaos a mistake was made.

FACT: Despite the Bush regime saying that they could not believe people would fly aeroplanes into buildings, on

9/11 several military and intelligence exercises were going on, some of which had simulations of planes being

flown into buildings insluding the WTC and Pentagon.

Hey, if we are going to criticize a government for being disorganized and inefficient then i'm with you.

FACT: In the weeks prior to 9/11, workers complained that there had been many more incidences of the buildings

being shut down for 'maintenance' than at any time in the previous twenty years.

Do do doo do, do do doo do. So?

FACT: Prior to 9/11, an unusually large number of 'put' options were placed against the airlines used in the

attacks. A 'put' option is when you buy stock at a certain price, but suspect that the stock will fall. If this

happens, you have the right, with the 'put' option, to sell at the price you bought the stock i.e. you make a huge

profit.

Great. evidence please.

FACT: In 2000, the Project for a New American Century, which was riddled with high-level members of the Bush

regime, stated that the US needed 'a new Pearl Harbour'.

Go on then. Evidence?

FACT: In 2000, NORAD scrambled jets to intercept off-course aircraft 129 times. between September 2000 and June

2001, there were 67 intercepts. None of the off-course aircraft on 9/11 were intercepted by military aircraft.

How slow the military were is a strange one. But as you believe that hundreds and thousands of government workers, and army/air force personnel were in on it, I put it down to human error.

FACT: On 9/11, an E-4B 'Doomsday Plane' was spotted flying over the restricted airspace over washington DC before

the Pentagon was hit.

Evidence?

FACT: FBI terrorist expert, John O'Neill, warned his superiors of the dangers of an impending, major terrorist

attack. He quit the agency two weeks before 9/11 and got a job as head of security at the WTC. He died on 9/11.

Bad luck.

FACT: WTC Building 7 (the Salomon Building) held NY mayor, Rudolph Guiliani's emergency command centre. It also

housed the offices of numerous government agencies, including the Department of Defense, the CIA, the Secret

Service, the IRS, and the Security and Exchange Commission. Many investigations into companies such as Enron were

ruined because the records were stored in WTC 7 alone.

So they killed thousands of people to keep themselves out of jail,. Riiiight.

FACT: The BBC reported that WTC 7 had collapsed 26 minutes before it actually came down.

It was explained in the BBC documentary. 24 hour news is always screwing up, it is the nature of the beast. The newsreader had an unsubstantiated AP report, and the reporter knew nothign about it. the 'lost' video mas misfiled.

FACT: WTC 7 was designed so that entire floors could be removed without losing structural integrity, making it

easier for tenants to 'customize' their workspaces.

And?

FACT: George W Bush's brother, Marvin, and his cousin, Wirt Walker III, headed the company that handled security

at the WTC.

It's a small world after all. its a small, small world.

FACT: On September 10th, Donald Rumsfeld reported to the press that $2.3 trillion of Pentagon funds could not be

accounted for. The offices of the Pentagon officials investigating the missing trillions were destroyed on 9/11.

Pfft

There are many, many more facts about 9/11 that clearly show further investigation is required, including those at

the very top of the political ladder.

i take no credit for this work but if only half of it is true then you would have to agree something wasnt right

No. I don't. All you have done is list a bunch of coincidences, arbitrary information, and conjecture. you would not make a good lawyer.

As I have said. Where there is an inaccuracy you see an evil plot, normal people see human fallibility

 

[earthshayker]

We don't know what english does for a living or the people/sources that he may have, we all have our own way of finding out what we think we know, who is to say that our sources are right we can only go by what we are told or what we think we see.

Like I said in a previous post alot of people think of Nelson Mandela as a hero but on the other hand I've spoken to other people who said he was just a terrorist.

Lets face it we all have different opinons some may sound crazy some may sound stupid but its just someones opinion. Even if I can't physically see you guys I see you all as m8s and its a great place to correspond and hear different opinons (not to mention the help with all sorts) so lets just let people have thier say

 

[gritz]

what i was saying is it would only take a slip up by one person to mistakenly release the "story" that wtc7 had collapsed

 

[hamba]

what i was saying is it would only take a slip up by one person to mistakenly release the "story" that wtc7 had collapsed

You don't seem to want to answer the question I asked in post 181 and repeated in my last post.

???

 

[gritz]

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

take a look at the signatories at the bottom this isnt a few nutters, all were after is answers

 

[gritz]

In order for these theories to have any real foundation in fact it would have to mean that all the established and respected western journalists were in on it. Not to mention the major philosophers, historians, academics, politicians, etc.

ok why would all these people have to be in on it

 

[hamba]

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633

take a look at the signatories at the bottom this isnt a few nutters, all were after is answers

They signed a statement which says:


"the government had foreknowledge and "consciously failed to act,"

most of the other conspiracy stuff goes way beyond that.

 

[hamba]

ok why would all these people have to be in on it

Because it is unlikely that, if they felt there was a major conspiracy, they wouldn't explore the facts, come to some conclusion and make that conclusion known.

Just the journalists: they wouldn't let it lie, they love to dig out the truth - or some dirt.

 

[gritz]

They signed a statement which says:


"the government had foreknowledge and "consciously failed to act,"

most of the other conspiracy stuff goes way beyond that.

isnt that bad enough

 

[gritz]

Because it is unlikely that, if they felt there was a major conspiracy, they wouldn't explore the facts, come to some conclusion and make that conclusion known.

Just the journalists: they wouldn't let it lie, they love to dig out the truth - or some dirt.

i think some of these people might know what theyre talking about

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

 

[gritz]

surely you must agree there are a lot of questions need answering,

 

[hamba]

surely you must agree there are a lot of questions need answering,

There are a lot of questions need answering right across the board of international politics.

I don't believe a great deal of the "official account" of 9/11 but I stop a long way short of some of the crazy claims.

For example: I think it is quite likely that more was known about a possible attack on the twin towers but my view leans more towards incompetence.

The "notable" people you have cited have a wide range of gripes against the "official account": they are not all crying, "conspiracy".

 

[gritz]

maybe they dont want to sound crazy
but i appreciate your honest point of view and i hope your right in fact i would rather it was just a case of incompitence its a lot easier to stomach than than the idea that the people elected by the public are capable of what couldl possibly amount to genocide