Proxy war could soon turn to direct conflict, analysts warn

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Julian Borger and Ian Black – The Guardian September 15, 2007

The growing US focus on confronting Iran in a proxy war inside Iraq risks triggering a direct conflict in the next few months, regional analysts are warning.

US-Iranian tensions have mounted significantly in the past few days, with heightened rhetoric on both sides and the US decision to establish a military base in Iraq less than five miles from the Iranian border to block the smuggling of Iranian arms to Shia militias.

The involvement of a few hundred British troops in the anti-smuggling operation also raises the risk of their involvement in a cross-border clash.

US officers have alleged that an advanced Iranian-made missile had been fired at an American base from a Shia area, which if confirmed would be a significant escalation in the "proxy war" referred to this week by General David Petraeus, the US commander in Iraq.

"The proxy war that has been going on in Iraq may now cross the border. This is a very dangerous period," Patrick Cronin, the director of studies at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said.

Iran's leaders have so far shown every sign of relishing the confrontation. The supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, declared yesterday that American policies had failed in the Middle East and warned: "I am certain that one day Bush and senior American officials will be tried in an international court for the tragedies they have created in Iraq."

In such circumstances, last week's Israeli air strike against a mystery site in northern Syria has triggered speculation over its motives. Israel has been silent about the attack. Syria complained to the UN security council but gave few details. Some say the target was Iranian weapons on their way to Hizbullah in Lebanon, or that the sortie was a dry run for a US-Israeli attack on Syria and Iran.

There is even speculation that the Israelis took out a nuclear facility funded by Iran and supplied by North Korea

The situation is particularly volatile because the struggle for influence threatens to exacerbate a confrontation over Tehran's nuclear ambitions.

The US has called a meeting of major powers in Washington next Friday to discuss Iran's defiance of UN resolutions calling for its suspension of uranium enrichment. It comes amid signs that the Bush administration is running out of patience with diplomatic efforts to curb the nuclear programme. Hawks led by the vice-president, Dick Cheney, are intensifying their push for military action, with support from Israel and privately from some Sunni Gulf states.

"Washington is seriously reviewing plans to bomb not just nuclear sites, but oil sites, military sites and even leadership targets. The talk is of multiple targets," said Mr Cronin. "In Washington there is very serious discussion that this is a window that has to be looked at seriously because there is only six months to 'do something about Iran' before it will be looked at as a purely political issue."

US presidential elections are due in November 2008, and military action at the height of the campaign is usually seen by voters as politically motivated.

Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA counter-terrorism chief who is now a security analyst, said: "The decision to attack was made some time ago. It will be in two stages. If a smoking gun is found in terms of Iranian interference in Iraq, the US will retaliate on a tactical level, and they will strike against military targets. The second part of this is: Bush has made the decision to launch a strategic attack against Iranian nuclear facilities, although not before next year. He has been lining up some Sunni countries for tacit support for his actions."

US and British officials have complained to Iran about the use by Shia militias in Iraq of what they say are Iranian-made weapons. The main concern is the proliferation of roadside bombs that fire a bolt of molten metal through any thickness of armour, which the officials say must have been made in Iran.

A US military spokesman in Baghdad, Major General Kevin Bergner, raised the stakes when he said the 240mm rocket that hit the US military headquarters outside Baghdad this week, killing an American soldier and wounding 11, had been supplied to Shia militants by Iran.

Gen Bergner used to work in the White House, where he was aligned with administration hawks, and his dispatch to Baghdad was seen by some as a move to increase pressure on Iran.

"There are an awful lot of lower level officers who are very angry about the deaths from explosively formed projectiles said to come from Iran. There is a certain amount of military pressure to do something about this," said Patrick Clawson, the deputy director for research at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. "That said, it is very difficult for us to do anything without much better evidence. In that respect, border control is a sensible solution."

Any US decision to attack Iran would force Gordon Brown to choose between creating a serious rift in the transatlantic alliance and participating in or endorsing American actions. British officials insist that Washington has given no sign it is ready to abandon diplomacy and argue that UN sanctions are showing signs of working. They point to the resurgence in Iran of Hashemi Rafsanjani, seen as a pragmatic counterweight to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Hopes that a new war could still be avoided have also been boosted by Gen Petraeus's claim that Iran's covert Quds force alleged to be supporting Shia attacks on coalition forces had been pulled out of Iraq. If true, it could be that in the stand-off between the US and Iran, Iran has blinked first.
www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2169798,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
 
Seems the yanks are hell bent stirring up a hornets nest,lets hope gordon brown has the bolx not to drag the uk in on the act.
 
Seems the yanks are hell bent stirring up a hornets nest,lets hope gordon brown has the bolx not to drag the uk in on the act.

I could not agree more !! what ever the (trade related) financial penalties that would arise from a rift between the UK and US , it is time to say enough is enough !! I would rather pay higher taxes to prop up the economy than start another war (and risk even more irate middle easterners coming and bombing my transport to work)
 
mate enough is enough,

the US government knows that its on its own continent and the majority of the problems, if there was a war would be in Europe and Middle East.

After all the shits dies down after any war, who benefits, yes you got it the US economy.

I'm all for defending ourself, but lets look at this scenario;

Russia takes missiles to its own friendly partner country, let say Cuba - its not illegal? is it as all friendly states have a god-given right to exchange any items they want between themselves.

Or Iran backs Cuba by funding weapons and training and incites the Cubans to attack the US - how is this different from what the US have done in several countries (Iran/Iraq) war being one of these occasions.

It seems to me that if any country attack the UK by military force, then its just and right that they should defend themselves, but what if country X starts supplying weapons to the Scottish Nationalist or Welsh Nationalist and incites them to attack the English parliament, would anyone not see this as incitement - how is this different from supply weapons to the Kurds, Shites (favorable to the US) and sunni groups (favorable to the US) to fight a civil war in there own country and Afghani government. Does anyone really care if the afghans want to grow beards and rule over them selves however they want, why is it 95% of all women are still as oppressed under the new afghan govenment as they were previously under the pro-taliban government. But the afgahn goverment have sucured a gas pipeline from the caspian sea are to India and Turkey - just a coincidence perhaps.

The US goverment dont give a shit about anyone of us, remember the kyoto agreement, they and there experts said that global warming was a load of rubbish - now the US goverment are saying that the biggest contribution to green house gases is industrial polution - and you guess right, they are saying that China, India, Brazil and the OTHER countries eventually catching up with the Industrial revolution should cut there emissions but the US govenment wouldnt sign up for any agreement that says it has to cut major green house gases in the US.

It is clear for us all the US governent only thinks about its own rich classes - they dont even value lives if they are BLACK or HISPANIC or PORTO RICIAN or MEXICAN or any other nationality or race.

For those of you who have watched the documentary SICKO, you see how the elite classes even subjugate there own people, after watching Sicko (I recommend it to all) check out the 9/11 commemerations in New York (only a few days ago), the officials had the ordacity to praise the fire brigade, police and civilian volunteers (yes the civilian volunteers - yes the very ones that cant even get free medicinal care or social security disability payment because the respiratory or psycological problems they are suffering from arn't covered by MEDICARE and Mayor Julianni has told these people that they should not have gone into such a dangerous environment without the appropriate safety equipent but at the time the same guy was on TV every days asking people to show the New Yorker spirit).

Sorry for the long reply but please think for our future and the future of our kids, do we really want to start a war and insecurity all around the world, eventually what goes-around-comes-around.

I would greatly appreciate a frank and fruitful discussion in this thread because they times maybe some of the most important and dangerous times that this planet has seen and I think we as the human race are slowing moving to the edge of the precipice and soon we'll fall off it into oblivion?????
 
mate enough is enough,

the US government knows that its on its own continent and the majority of the problems, if there was a war would be in Europe and Middle East.

After all the shits dies down after any war, who benefits, yes you got it the US economy.

I'm all for defending ourself, but lets look at this scenario;

Russia takes missiles to its own friendly partner country, let say Cuba - its not illegal? is it as all friendly states have a god-given right to exchange any items they want between themselves.

Or Iran backs Cuba by funding weapons and training and incites the Cubans to attack the US - how is this different from what the US have done in several countries (Iran/Iraq) war being one of these occasions.

It seems to me that if any country attack the UK by military force, then its just and right that they should defend themselves, but what if country X starts supplying weapons to the Scottish Nationalist or Welsh Nationalist and incites them to attack the English parliament, would anyone not see this as incitement - how is this different from supply weapons to the Kurds, Shites (favorable to the US) and sunni groups (favorable to the US) to fight a civil war in there own country and Afghani government. Does anyone really care if the afghans want to grow beards and rule over them selves however they want, why is it 95% of all women are still as oppressed under the new afghan govenment as they were previously under the pro-taliban government. But the afgahn goverment have sucured a gas pipeline from the caspian sea are to India and Turkey - just a coincidence perhaps.

The US goverment dont give a shit about anyone of us, remember the kyoto agreement, they and there experts said that global warming was a load of rubbish - now the US goverment are saying that the biggest contribution to green house gases is industrial polution - and you guess right, they are saying that China, India, Brazil and the OTHER countries eventually catching up with the Industrial revolution should cut there emissions but the US govenment wouldnt sign up for any agreement that says it has to cut major green house gases in the US.

It is clear for us all the US governent only thinks about its own rich classes - they dont even value lives if they are BLACK or HISPANIC or PORTO RICIAN or MEXICAN or any other nationality or race.

For those of you who have watched the documentary SICKO, you see how the elite classes even subjugate there own people, after watching Sicko (I recommend it to all) check out the 9/11 commemerations in New York (only a few days ago), the officials had the ordacity to praise the fire brigade, police and civilian volunteers (yes the civilian volunteers - yes the very ones that cant even get free medicinal care or social security disability payment because the respiratory or psycological problems they are suffering from arn't covered by MEDICARE and Mayor Julianni has told these people that they should not have gone into such a dangerous environment without the appropriate safety equipent but at the time the same guy was on TV every days asking people to show the New Yorker spirit).

Sorry for the long reply but please think for our future and the future of our kids, do we really want to start a war and insecurity all around the world, eventually what goes-around-comes-around.

I would greatly appreciate a frank and fruitful discussion in this thread because they times maybe some of the most important and dangerous times that this planet has seen and I think we as the human race are slowing moving to the edge of the precipice and soon we'll fall off it into oblivion?????



i agree with the last part of that post but the first part suggesting that the u.s benefits from these wars are wrong. the us did not benefit from the war in iraq and they would not benefit from any war in the m.e. these wars are started by a corrupt elite who put their own interest first.
 
sorry mate, I dont mean the US people..........I mean the US establishment.......the elite of the US make fortune at the time of war, from selling weapons, instability of the stockmarkets (remember everytime the stock market collapses, a few elite make fortunes), installing puppet regimes for future exploits etc the list is endless, the poor normal people of US are just as much VICTIMS and the Iraqi people.

Why is it the Saddam (incidently installed by the UK) was funded by us and the US when it suited us but then sanctions were put onto the people of Iraq for 10 years, killing MILLIONS mainly babaies, elderly, checkout

h**p://healthythoughts.wordpress.com/2006/09/19/iraq-un-sanctions-starvation-depleted-uranium-sugar-babies/

h**p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_sanctions

Mate just google & you will find plenty of info by reputable organisations like AMNESTY INTL, INDEPENDENT, GUARDIAN, SKYNEWS, BBC, REUTERS etc

If one section of the WORLD think they are the only reason that the other 95% of the world population exist then this will no doubt lead to all our extinction
 
i agree with the last part of that post but the first part suggesting that the u.s benefits from these wars are wrong. the us did not benefit from the war in iraq and they would not benefit from any war in the m.e. these wars are started by a corrupt elite who put their own interest first.


Checkout if the US benefits from arms sales;

h**p://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/BigBusiness.asp


NOTE: the taliban, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libiya are surprising not there..........either they are brilliant at producing and not selling weapons or they dont know how to make the real destructive stuff, think for yourself.


"For globalism to work, America can’t be afraid to act like the almighty superpower that it is.…The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist—McDonald’s cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas, the designer of the F-15. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley’s technologies is called the United States Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps."

— Thomas Friedman, What the World Needs Now, New York Times, March 28, 1999. Quoted from Backing Up Globalization with Military Might
 
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agreed

i agree with u and they even called it operation iraqi freedom when they send troops to the country to control them orwell must be rolling in his grave.
 
ijust bomb tel-aviv and global terrorism will be ended.

as a bonus, germany and america will prosper because of all the money they wont be handing over anymore.
well germany anyway - america is too far gone to be saved imo.
 
mates, I dont want to be the face of doom all the time, but the answer is simple.......let people rule themselves without interference.....this means US not interfering with the Middle East and the Middle East has never interfered with the US. If any country is run be dicatators, stop selling them military hardware and let the indiginous people of that country decide its own future, simple isn't it.............but wait how will the big multi-national companies make money with so-much stability in the world???
 
i still say bomb tel-aviv,
they *do* have weapons of mass destruction,
they *are* dangerous dictators,
they *did* ignore U.N. resolutions, (over 50 of them)
they *have* carried out terrorist act's in other country's iincluding Europe.
and they have been murdering people (palastinians *are* people) for over 60 years.

BOMB TEL-AVIV!
 
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i still say bomb tel-aviv,
they *do* have weapons of mass destruction,
they *are* dangerous dictators,
they *did* ignore U.N. resolutions, (over 50 of them)
they *have* carried out terrorist act's in other country's iincluding Europe.
and they have been murdering people (palastinians *are* people) for over 60 years.

BOMB TEL-AVIV!

Havent we learnt yet that murder and extreme violence is not the answer
 
I think we have... but i'm not so sure weather the iranians will care if they do develop nuclear weapons.


why iran .? why not india . are usa , uk , france ,china , russia . remember the usa is the only country that has used an atom bomb in anger . and also wanted to use it again in korea . do you think that if bush had been in charge then they would have used it ...??????/

i think so .
 
why iran .? why not india . are usa , uk , france ,china , russia . remember the usa is the only country that has used an atom bomb in anger . and also wanted to use it again in korea . do you think that if bush had been in charge then they would have used it ...??????/

i think so .

I don't dispute your point. But I think its important for the Non Nuclear Proliferation treaty to be upheld...... Don't you think the countires you've listed cause enough problems on their own, without bringing even more countries into the equation???
 
just a reminder,
there is no evidence that iran is or wants to develope nuclear weapons.

why would they, if they wanted any they could just purchase a few off the russians - just like britain uses american nukes.

it costs massive amounts of money to develope & test nukes, why re-invent the wheel.

imo if iran (or any other ME country had nukes israhell would stop attacking all it's neibors and accept it's borders rather than trying to spread across half the mid-east like a virus.
 
just a reminder,
there is no evidence that iran is or wants to develope nuclear weapons.

why would they, if they wanted any they could just purchase a few off the russians - just like britain uses american nukes.

it costs massive amounts of money to develope & test nukes, why re-invent the wheel.

imo if iran (or any other ME country had nukes israhell would stop attacking all it's neibors and accept it's borders rather than trying to spread across half the mid-east like a virus.


Agreed on the Iran situation, no evidence so no conclusions.....

However you seriously believe Russia could just sell Nuclear weapons to Iran and get away with it?? Lets face it if Nukes turn up in any country which does not already have nuclear technologies of their own the international community would be asking serious questions, and there would only be 7 states to point the finger at.

As far as I am aware Britians Nuclear Warheads are self developed, The delivery systems on the other hand are US technologies (Trident missile systems). The reason they will have to reinvent the wheel is because it is the only way they should be able to get hold of the weapons... I say should.
 
Why is it that certain countries namely US, UK, Former USSR states, France etc are armed to the teeth and are afraid of "terrorists" from the middle east. Surely, the Middle East, which has no real army, no real navy, no real airforce, should be more afraid for there national safety.

I dont recall Iran ever invading the US, UK, Russia, France, worst they did was the Iran hostage seige in London, I think in the eightees.

The UN are a proxy for the US and are vettoed or cajouled as necessary - no-one takes the UN serious, remember the massacres in sierra leone, Bosnia.

As I remember from the schoolyard days the only way of getting free of the bully is to let him know that you wont be pushed around and that if you are attacked you will fight back and injury him as much as he'll injure you.

The superpowers of this world are the ones that are forcing everyone to go back to the law of the jungle. If there was an impartial court of some type which metered out fair justice equal to all, then all these problem would not arise. It only because might is right that these problems are being exacerbated.
 
Agreed on the Iran situation, no evidence so no conclusions.....

However you seriously believe Russia could just sell Nuclear weapons to Iran and get away with it??
.

yes, nobody would even know unless they were forced to use them.
for example, syria has leased it's deep-sea port to the russians for naval work - they are dredging it right now.
i'm sure once it's in use the russians will put air defence systems onsite to prevent any stupid hebrew actions.
will anybody be able to say anything? no - not unless they intend to bomb it!
As far as I am aware Britians Nuclear Warheads are self developed,

no, it's all-american.
in the 60's we developed our own nuclear bomb called "blue danube",
then rolls-royce developed our own balistic missile to carry the warhead.
it was called "blue streek" and was superior to the american equivelent.

then that treasonous bitch Thatcher came to power and scrapped it (and several other things).
she decree'd that we were to buy american and not question it.
again - treasonous bitch!

i wouldnt even trust those american missiles not to comunicate in flight with norad for target clearance so they can decide who we do and dont bomb!
 
at the end of the day there are no weapons of mass destruction its all bollocks if so where are they? thats the main reason they went to war or shall i say main excuse.
us citizens are the ones who are suffering in all this
all the terrorist crap started after the war on iraq who gets hurt we do!
it best not to stick your nose in other peoples business i say we go there innocent civillians get killed dont forget!
them same civillians come here for revenge and kill us imagine if your whole family gets wiped out God forbid but just imagine what would go through your head you'd want to go there and get revenge

at the end of the day whats iraq achieved fair enough no Saddam but there was less people getting killed then there is now!

its only for the oil Bush has got what he needed now he wants Iran cos he's just realised the oil pipes come under Iran no media tells you the truth you only believe what you hear and see how do you know its the truth!

when our soldiers die there have you noticed 9/10 times it was an accident plane crash or something stupid its all bollocks if you ask me i think we should pull out of there and leave em to it
it will save us and our soldiers!
 
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