Clone boxes destroyed by gemini

beady said:
Surely there's some very serious legal implications for Dream Multimedia with this. You can't just go around destroying someone else's property, which in many case was purchased in good faith. It's a bit like Microsoft not only disabling Vista if you haven't got a valid license, but also deliberately frying the motherboard in your PC. I'm sure they'll claim it was a bug, but I can't see how it can be. And why do this now, when they've stopped making the 500? Maybe it's just a way to force people into upgrading to the 500+, which as far as I can tell would be a pointless upgrade. What use is the extra flash memory anyway?
Click to expand...


Microsoft does not produce PC's or not for the Mass Market,

Better Example would be a Mac with Mac OS.

If some factory now decides to clone a Mac and sell with Mac software it would be OK for Mac to stop them doing so.

You cannot claim you did not know that you did not buy a fake good, it is not your property as it should have never been sold to you in the 1st Place.

The dead giveaway should also have been the price ...
 
Microsoft does not produce PC's or not for the Mass Market,
Better Example would be a Mac with Mac OS.
If some factory now decides to clone a Mac and sell with Mac software it would be OK for Mac to stop them doing so.
You cannot claim you did not know that you did not buy a fake good, it is not your property as it should have never been sold to you in the 1st Place.
The dead giveaway should also have been the price ...
Click to expand...
Okay, so maybe the Microsoft example wasn't great, but I disagree that people should automatically know that they're buying a clone. After all, I'm sure that there's plenty of people that payed full whack from a dealer for a clone, believing it to be genuine. And surely it is still your property, you just happen to own a clone.
Plus, while I agree that Apple should be allowed to prevent their software running on anything but Macs, doing that by destroying the machine isn't okay. It's one thing preventing your software running on any box but a specific type, it's quite another to prevent ANY software running on that box.
Of course, IANAL, so maybe I'm wrong. It'll be interesting to see how things turn out.
 
But in this case it's not just software theft it's also hardware theft !

The Boxes circuit Boards are copied 1:1 including the crappy 100MBit network and then on top of if the copyright proctected Software is stolen too.

The Mac example suits better as Apple builds the hardware and develops the software on top !

Imagine someone copies a Volkswagen Golf somewhere in China and they copy it completely incl. the Software the controls the Car.

You buy it half price and then Volkswagen run's an Update that renders the Car useless....

If you have bought one from an official Dealer and the Dealer did not advise you that the Item is actually a fake then you can report him to trading standards.

Same thing for fake clothes or glases from ebay... The price is always a giveaway..
 
pt-1 said:
But in this case it's not just software theft it's also hardware theft !

The Boxes circuit Boards are copied 1:1 including the crappy 100MBit network and then on top of if the copyright proctected Software is stolen too.

The Mac example suits better as Apple builds the hardware and develops the software on top !

Imagine someone copies a Volkswagen Golf somewhere in China and they copy it completely incl. the Software the controls the Car.

You buy it half price and then Volkswagen run's an Update that renders the Car useless....

If you have bought one from an official Dealer and the Dealer did not advise you that the Item is actually a fake then you can report him to trading standards.

Same thing for fake clothes or glases from ebay... The price is always a giveaway..
Click to expand...


DW>Gemini anyway,so who cares what DMM do! :)
 
As far as UK law is concerned it could probably be argued that the dreambox is, in fact, a general purpose computing device (by virtue of it running linux) and, as such, any attempt to pass a virus/trojan/worm would fall under the computer misuse act (specifically section 3). Further offences may also be commited under the criminal damages act.

I realise that this is German juristiction rather than UK but all EU countries have similar laws regarding the passing of virus/trojan/worm type devices.

If DMM had mearly made their new drivers incompatible with clones then that would of been acceptable but physically damaging clones is something else again !
 
Again,

I am sure this would apply if the product the copyrighted software is being used on would be a different development alltogether.

The Fact is it's a 1:1 copy and Fake Glases etc get normally destroyed by Customs.

European Law also states that each product sold in the EU should have 2 years warrenty ...

Lovely to see that Curry's and Co. try to flog you extra warrenty ..
 
I'm sure clone manufacturers will just make the boot loader flash part read only :)
Its stupid why it can be overwritten, can't see any point ????

Maybe its possible to mod existing ones depending on flash type.
 
pt-1 said:
Again,

I am sure this would apply if the product the copyrighted software is being used on would be a different development alltogether.

The Fact is it's a 1:1 copy and Fake Glases etc get normally destroyed by Customs.

Lovely to see that Curry's and Co. try to flog you extra warrenty ..
Click to expand...

In theory, it really shouldn't matter one way or the other. Neither the computer misuse act or the criminal damages act make such distinctions and I imagine the relevant German laws are very similar (the laws were mostly drafted following EU guidlines).

Also not too sure about your 1:1 copy idea. If these were really 1:1 copies then DMM wouldn't be able to target them. There are obviously differences.

I'm also not convinced that DMM hold the copyright on the hardware design being as the design of the DM500 is actually very close to a reference design produced by the chipset manufacturer. There's a few extra's tagged onto the the reference but these are themselves mostly reference designs from other chip manufacturers.
 
I would assume the clones just use 1 Mac Address on all of them. Therefore they would be quite easy to spot ;-)

Test could be users posting theirs in here from their clones to cross check ...

ifconfig via telnet should show it ...

There are other manufacturers like DGStation or Kathrein using simular chipset's but completely different layouts.

There are many ways to create a final product based on the same reference design.

Best example is the IDE Interface for the Dbox that originally was sold by Hallenberg as he got the 1st 1/2 Head Start for forking out the money for the Nokia Motherboard connectors.

Now another company is making a Interface too based on the same original design but a completely different circuit layout.

Fact is that these clones including remotes are 1:1 copies
 
The issue is intellectual copyright theft not physical theft (hardware). The clones are not stolen from DMM's factory. Their ideas (that are legally protected, at least in Germany, which leads to another problem - how far copyright stretches legally) are stolen.

To disable boxes bought possibly in good faith (there are many bought off ebay at premium prices, that advertise authenticity) if not legal, is morally wrong. Do they go after the far eastern factories that make the clones? No. That is too hard, and expensive, and the possibly that they would lose a worldwide copyright legal battle. Instead they do two things. Stop production of the real boxes (because to be honest the far east factories have a better business model in terms of production), and then when that didn't stop the 500c from being sold (in clone form) they try and break personal property. It is disgusting.

Just as nike could not rip a t-shirt off your back on the street if it bore their name, but was not authentic, DMM should not be able to spread a computer virus to try and defend its copyright.

And lets face it, DMM have made a nice business out of the dark side of cable. To be honest if Richard Branson dropped a bomb from his balloon on the DMM headquarters, stating he had a right to defend the intellectual copyright of his company I would laugh.

This all smacks of pots and pans decrying each other for their dark complexion.
 
Last edited:
mozr said:
The issue is intellectual copyright theft not physical theft (hardware). The clones are not stolen from DMM's factory. Their ideas (that are legally protected, at least in Germany, which leads to another problem - how far copyright stretches legally) are stolen.

To disable boxes bought possibly in good faith (there are many bought off ebay at premium prices, that advertise authenticity) if not legal, is morally wrong. Do they go after the far eastern factories that make the clones? No. That is too hard, and expensive, and the possibly that they would lose a worldwide copyright legal battle. Instead they do two things. Stop production of the real boxes (because to be honest the far east factories have a better business model in terms of production), and then when that didn't stop the 500c from being sold (in clone form) they try and break personal property. It is disgusting.

Just as nike could not rip a t-shirt off your back on the street if it bore their name, but was not authentic, DMM should not be able to spread a computer virus to try and defend its copyright.

And lets face it, DMM have made a nice business out of the dark side of cable. To be honest if Richard Branson dropped a bomb from his balloon on the DMM headquarters, stating he had a right to defend the intellectual copyright of his company I would laugh.

This all smacks of pots and pans decrying each other for their dark complexion.
Click to expand...


2 words...here here ;)
 
That link's old mate. It's explaining the MAC filtering they did to only allow Gemini to run on genuine boxes. It was defeated in about 3 seconds flat. The stuff from DMM is a lot more insidious..
 
beady said:
That link's old mate. It's explaining the MAC filtering they did to only allow Gemini to run on genuine boxes. It was defeated in about 3 seconds flat. The stuff from DMM is a lot more insidious..
Click to expand...

opz sorry thought was new this morning...I need to waken up :)
 
mozr said:
The issue is intellectual copyright theft not physical theft (hardware). The clones are not stolen from DMM's factory. Their ideas (that are legally protected, at least in Germany, which leads to another problem - how far copyright stretches legally) are stolen.

To disable boxes bought possibly in good faith (there are many bought off ebay at premium prices, that advertise authenticity) if not legal, is morally wrong. Do they go after the far eastern factories that make the clones? No. That is too hard, and expensive, and the possibly that they would lose a worldwide copyright legal battle. Instead they do two things. Stop production of the real boxes (because to be honest the far east factories have a better business model in terms of production), and then when that didn't stop the 500c from being sold (in clone form) they try and break personal property. It is disgusting.

Just as nike could not rip a t-shirt off your back on the street if it bore their name, but was not authentic, DMM should not be able to spread a computer virus to try and defend its copyright.

And lets face it, DMM have made a nice business out of the dark side of cable. To be honest if Richard Branson dropped a bomb from his balloon on the DMM headquarters, stating he had a right to defend the intellectual copyright of his company I would laugh.

This all smacks of pots and pans decrying each other for their dark complexion.
Click to expand...

OK,

let's try that again.

DMM have a least in Germany if not in the whole of Europe the patent on their developed product and Software.

There are ways that you can insure yourself against property theft and at least in Germany they offer a reward of 10.000€ for any Information about the cloned Boxes.

The new Boxes have got a Sim Card in them that should stop the cloning business.

Again in Germany if I buy a Navigation Radio for example for a Volkswagen and pay in good faith for it and a few weeks later the Police knocks on my door they have every right to take this unknown to my knowledge "stolen" Navigation Device of me and I shall not receive any refund.

I am not aware if DMM officially sell these Boxes in the UK

Unfortunately is it a normal thing in the UK to sell Fake Pirate DVD's or even Cable Boxes in Market Stals around the country.

Mr. Brandson would have no need to Bomb the DMM Headquarter as the Boxes are officially and legally sold in Country's were the Cable Market is open and not monopolized ....
 
pt-1 said:
OK,

let's try that again.

DMM have a least in Germany if not in the whole of Europe the patent on their developed product and Software.

There are ways that you can insure yourself against property theft and at least in Germany they offer a reward of 10.000€ for any Information about the cloned Boxes.

The new Boxes have got a Sim Card in them that should stop the cloning business.
Click to expand...

I just think we disagree. I do not care much for copyright, especially a copyright that enables people to steal cable television (yes I know people use them for legal reasons, but lets not play who can be the cutest. They are linux based techy boxes for hackers) . I also think that the majority of people on here feel the same way, otherwise they would not be stealing cable in the first place.

pt-1 said:
Again in Germany if I buy a Navigation Radio for example for a Volkswagen and pay in good faith for it and a few weeks later the Police knocks on my door they have every right to take this unknown to my knowledge "stolen" Navigation Device of me and I shall not receive any refund.
Click to expand...

Forgive me if I am not understanding what you are implying, but I infer from this that the German police can recover stolen property (physical) and the owner has no recompense. Well it is the same here in the UK. However, there is a big difference between physical property and intellectual property. I would be surprised if (to use my earlier analogy) German police were taking fake nike shirts of peoples backs in Berlin.

I am not aware if DMM officially sell these Boxes in the UK
Click to expand...

Here is a list on the official DMM site of resellers in the UK. This sort of blows the 'DMM is holier than thou, and they don't support piracy' argument now doesn't it?

Unfortunately is it a normal thing in the UK to sell Fake Pirate DVD's or even Cable Boxes in Market Stals around the country.

Mr. Brandson would have no need to Bomb the DMM Headquarter as the Boxes are officially and legally sold in Country's were the Cable Market is open and not monopolized ....
Click to expand...

I refer to my earlier link. Dream Multimedia do and have supply cable boxes to the UK (where there is a monopoly). The only reason for people to buy a box is to stick DW 2.0 on it and get free porn. Will they admit to it? No.

Then they start to try and spread viruses. It is a dirty trick. When they admit it and come back into the fold, we can begin to appreciate again them for what they have done for us.

Lets agree to disagree. You think that companies have the right to protect their proprietary ideas by spreading viruses to kill clones of said intellectual copyright. I think it is a stretch to far, bad form, and it sets a dangerous precedent.
 
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