Ketonic diet

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Just wondering if anyone has tried it or any similar low carb/high protein regime.

I was recommended read a book entitled 'Eat meat & quit jogging'. Catchy title- turns out it was a teaser for the main bit, Live it not Diet'. Well they were only a quid each* and certainly made interesting reading.

Briefly, the diet puts your body into a 'ketonic' state by removing carbs & sugars and replacing with animal protein and fat. The protein is converted into fat-burning muscle and your system is forced to use body fat as fuel instead of the sugars derived from carbs. (Once you're in ketosis it's more relaxed, in fact you are allowed one 'eat what you want' day per week!)

The books seem to be well researched and I am thinking of giving it a try.

Now unlike most, my motive is not weight loss. I am quite happy with my weight, my main objective is to get sugars out of my system. Evil, invasive, addictive stuff. It's everywhere.
There is diabetes in my family history and dementia (what was I saying?), and I believe (rightly or wrongly- who knows?) that making some changes now will hopefully stave off what many think is 'the inevitable'.

* Ebooks from Amazon; prices vary enormously between .co.uk & .com sites, so shop around! Use a VPN if you have to.
 

theblueirish

DW Regular +
Joined
Aug 10, 2010
Messages
946
Reaction score
326
haven't time for in depth discussion tonight but yeah, done it, lost a stone in ten days
i have put it back on again because i couldn't sustain the diet,

its a lifestyle change, not a diet.

will discuss further during the week if you like
 

Ratts

VIP Member
VIP Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2009
Messages
4,367
Reaction score
1,836
Location
Bristol
to me diets don't and never work ... as long as you work/exercise more than your intake of calories you cant put on weight ....

the biggest thing anyone can do help weight control is to cut out as much sugar out of the diet as possible and snacks like crisps etc ....
 

Spectre

Administrator
Staff member
Jnr Admin
Joined
Jun 3, 2001
Messages
40,939
Reaction score
5,233
Location
Airstrip One
What to watch for is any initial weight loss being glycogen, it is stored in muscle and liver. Your body will use this before using any fat and it will replenish it when you start eating carbohydrates again. This is why people think they have lost and gained up to a stone.
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Thanks for the replies guys, it is appreciated.
As I said, losing weight is not the primary objective- I can afford to lose a couple of kg, and if the belly were to slim down a bit that would be a bonus.
The main aim is simply to remove sugar & sweeteners from my intake.
I have been 'dabbling' all weekend, and so far so good, but it is already requiring a mountain of willpower to resist some of my favourites.
Happily the alternatives being offered up are quite agreeable so far (juicy steaks, streaky pork, cheese & ham omelets for example) so I am confident that I can adjust.
I am now realising how addictive the evil white powder really is. We are introduced to it practically from day 1- I expect it's going to be tough after 54 years!
Interested to hear your views @theblueirish when you get a minute ;)
 

Spectre

Administrator
Staff member
Jnr Admin
Joined
Jun 3, 2001
Messages
40,939
Reaction score
5,233
Location
Airstrip One
Sorry, I think I misunderstood a bit, you want to remove [refined] sugar.

That is not necessarily a ketonic diet, it's just a low refined sugar one.

Your body, specifically the liver, will convert most carbohydrates to some sort of sugar for energy. There is no way around that - Carbohydrates will be converted down to probably monosaccharides, glucose, to be utilised by your body. The difference in what you eat is the pathway that carbohydrate takes to become glucose.

You can eat pasta, it will still become glucose.
You can eat meat, if your body doesn't have enough glucose your liver will de-aminise proteins and create glucose.

Apologies if I have anything wrong in there but I've been up for a while :). It's pretty complicated stuff when you look into it though, metabolic pathways and whatnot...
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Sorry, I think I misunderstood a bit, you want to remove [refined] sugar.

That is not necessarily a ketonic diet, it's just a low refined sugar one.

Your body, specifically the liver, will convert most carbohydrates to some sort of sugar for energy. There is no way around that - Carbohydrates will be converted down to probably monosaccharides, glucose, to be utilised by your body. The difference in what you eat is the pathway that carbohydrate takes to become glucose.

You can eat pasta, it will still become glucose.
You can eat meat, if your body doesn't have enough glucose your liver will de-aminise proteins and create glucose.

Apologies if I have anything wrong in there but I've been up for a while :). It's pretty complicated stuff when you look into it though, metabolic pathways and whatnot...
I think you got the right idea mate, it certainly agrees with the opinions of the author of the books. Sugars (especially the refined variety) are a complete no-no, and carbs are somewhat restricted- for the first three weeks anyway- to try and kick-start the fat-burning mode.
Agreed, it is an immensely complex subject- and probably not fully understood yet.
BTW, sleep is important too- go to bed!
 

countryboy

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Messages
4,345
Reaction score
723
Location
The king is dead long live the village idiot
That diet mate is used to strip the last bit of fat from your body before competition . I wouldn't recommend it for a long time . Your body can only process so much protein . Then your liver will struggle . Sorry this doesn't sound as fancy as the other posts I'm just going by my experience .
 

Spectre

Administrator
Staff member
Jnr Admin
Joined
Jun 3, 2001
Messages
40,939
Reaction score
5,233
Location
Airstrip One
My sleep has been a bit odd for a couple of days, I got up at about 3AM :).

From other things I've read "fibrous" plant carbs are OK as they are mostly undigested and don't contribute. Starchy carbs are not good, like potato, bread etc.
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
That diet mate is used to strip the last bit of fat from your body before competition . I wouldn't recommend it for a long time . Your body can only process so much protein . Then your liver will struggle . Sorry this doesn't sound as fancy as the other posts I'm just going by my experience .
Don't apologise mate, I need to hear the bad as well as the good. Sounds scary :eek:.
The one saving grace this 'plan' has is one day a week of "eat as much as you want of whatever you want"- presumably that kind of resets the clock a bit (it doesn't say that, I'm only surmising).
Presumably there are signs if the old liver is struggling? Mine's had a pretty easy time of it so far I reckon- I've never drunk alcohol lol!
 

mishu

New Member
Joined
May 25, 2017
Messages
15
Reaction score
5
Hi trevortron. If I were you I would be careful with this diet. A friend of mine done it for 6 months and he got hemorrhoids from eating only meat. He had to undergo surgery and now he is still eating meat but with a lot of vegetables.
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Hi trevortron. If I were you I would be careful with this diet. A friend of mine done it for 6 months and he got hemorrhoids from eating only meat. He had to undergo surgery and now he is still eating meat but with a lot of vegetables.
Thanks for 'heads up' @mishu. As it happens I've had problems in 'that area' some time ago (to the point of having to suffer the indignity of a seemingly 2-mile long endoscope) so I am acutely aware of the signs.
I am now one week in. There was a slight 'interruption' for the first couple of days but I am glad to say normal service has resumed.
So. After the first week. I am missing many aspects of my 'previous' diet, but on the plus side I have been eating steaks, bacon & eggs, cheese & ham omelets (all fried in butter!) chicken, streaky pork & fatty lamb for that week & I've lost about 1/2 a stone! Weight loss was not the objective, but if some of my belly were to disappear that would be a bonus.
I'm feeling a lot better now than I did the other day, though I do still feel a wee bit shaky between meals sometimes. And strangely (?) my calves feel weary & sometimes tending towards cramp. I'm doing some stretches before going to bed & that seems to have helped a bit with the cramps. Also adding a bit more salt to meals, something I haven't done for years!
 

Spectre

Administrator
Staff member
Jnr Admin
Joined
Jun 3, 2001
Messages
40,939
Reaction score
5,233
Location
Airstrip One
Thanks for 'heads up' @mishu. As it happens I've had problems in 'that area' some time ago (to the point of having to suffer the indignity of a seemingly 2-mile long endoscope) so I am acutely aware of the signs.
I am now one week in. There was a slight 'interruption' for the first couple of days but I am glad to say normal service has resumed.
So. After the first week. I am missing many aspects of my 'previous' diet, but on the plus side I have been eating steaks, bacon & eggs, cheese & ham omelets (all fried in butter!) chicken, streaky pork & fatty lamb for that week & I've lost about 1/2 a stone! Weight loss was not the objective, but if some of my belly were to disappear that would be a bonus.
I'm feeling a lot better now than I did the other day, though I do still feel a wee bit shaky between meals sometimes. And strangely (?) my calves feel weary & sometimes tending towards cramp. I'm doing some stretches before going to bed & that seems to have helped a bit with the cramps. Also adding a bit more salt to meals, something I haven't done for years!
I sometimes suffer bad calf or arch of foot cramp. Lately, more foot arch just as I'm falling asleep and the brain is stopping any muscle movement. Probably dehydration but it can be a number of things, including lack of certain minerals. The unfortunate bit is that it can be many minerals and all seem to compete for absorption with one another so taking the wrong ones won't help.

Seems like you've taken to it @trevortron and I think it's probably too soon but have you had a refeed day yet? I've read conflicting information on what the brain actually needs for energy and whether it can be synthesised from a protein and fat diet.
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Well I don't think it's dehydration- I am supposed to drink at least two glasses of water to every cup of tea (don't do coffee, me) and here, in the summer this is not a difficult task. So yes, more like a mineral deficiency. We are fortunate here, as one of the locally produced bottled waters is quite alkaline (pH9.5) which apparently is good- and I really like it.
I do NOT envy your calf & foot cramps. I've not had a full 'attack' yet, just the warnings. That I'm afraid would be a deal-breaker for me if it became a regular thing.
Too soon for a re-feed day, another two weeks yet. I am counting the minutes lol!
 

silverdale

VIP Member
VIP Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
3,631
Reaction score
1,710
I have never believed in all these diets no matter which form they come in. Basically, eat well, 4 -5 small portions a day if possible, plenty water, don't cut out the the rubbish just eat less of it and exercise. It sounds simple but in fairness it is. I try to keep to veg , chicken whole grain pasta, brown rice, museli. Jazz the food up with herbs and spices go low on pastry (kills me with heart burn) fatty meats. If I have chips I cut spuds up a low fat spray and oven bake on a tray. Once you get into the habit it a fookin doddle.
Just try to do more, the big problem I have is this country and the weather. It doesn't allow for outdoor activity for the vast majority of the year. Most times it's either rainig cold, or pitch fooking black for 16 hours a day !!!.
But back on it, when I say exercise I don't mean hammering the gym 24/7 I mean a bit of walking or something (up the tempo of the walk) something that raises the heartbeat for more than 20 minutes


I told the wife this, she replied, " Well in your case sex doesn't qualify !" cheeky bitch
 

Spectre

Administrator
Staff member
Jnr Admin
Joined
Jun 3, 2001
Messages
40,939
Reaction score
5,233
Location
Airstrip One
Well I don't think it's dehydration- I am supposed to drink at least two glasses of water to every cup of tea (don't do coffee, me) and here, in the summer this is not a difficult task. So yes, more like a mineral deficiency. We are fortunate here, as one of the locally produced bottled waters is quite alkaline (pH9.5) which apparently is good- and I really like it.
I do NOT envy your calf & foot cramps. I've not had a full 'attack' yet, just the warnings. That I'm afraid would be a deal-breaker for me if it became a regular thing.
Too soon for a re-feed day, another two weeks yet. I am counting the minutes lol!
I've jumped out of bed a few times :).

I think mine might be muscle over-stimulation related as it seems to be worse after some exercises. I'm not sure though as I have experienced cramp in my thumbs (I imagine the comments)! (Thenar aspect of the hand).

@silverdale, @trevortron is trying a bit more of an extreme diet here. Removing carbohydrates forces the body to dramatically change its use of energy substrate. From what you say I think you prefer the limiting of all macronutrient approach (as do I ) but is is an interesting thing thing to see a documented ketogenic diet :).

Here's a diagram of the paths (Metabolic Pathways: How Ketosis Works):

 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
I've jumped out of bed a few times :).

I think mine might be muscle over-stimulation related as it seems to be worse after some exercises. I'm not sure though as I have experienced cramp in my thumbs (I imagine the comments)! (Thenar aspect of the hand).

@silverdale, @trevortron is trying a bit more of an extreme diet here. Removing carbohydrates forces the body to dramatically change its use of energy substrate. From what you say I think you prefer the limiting of all macronutrient approach (as do I ) but is is an interesting thing thing to see a documented ketogenic diet :).

Here's a diagram of the paths (Metabolic Pathways: How Ketosis Works):


That's an interesting graphic @Spectre, thank you.
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
I have never believed in all these diets no matter which form they come in. Basically, eat well, 4 -5 small portions a day if possible, plenty water, don't cut out the the rubbish just eat less of it and exercise. It sounds simple but in fairness it is. I try to keep to veg , chicken whole grain pasta, brown rice, museli. Jazz the food up with herbs and spices go low on pastry (kills me with heart burn) fatty meats. If I have chips I cut spuds up a low fat spray and oven bake on a tray. Once you get into the habit it a fookin doddle.
Just try to do more, the big problem I have is this country and the weather. It doesn't allow for outdoor activity for the vast majority of the year. Most times it's either rainig cold, or pitch fooking black for 16 hours a day !!!.
But back on it, when I say exercise I don't mean hammering the gym 24/7 I mean a bit of walking or something (up the tempo of the walk) something that raises the heartbeat for more than 20 minutes


I told the wife this, she replied, " Well in your case sex doesn't qualify !" cheeky bitch
Funnily enough this is almost exactly how I have eaten for years, and it is very easy to do here, there is a lot of healthy food 'on tap'; Mediterranean diet & all that. Again, that wasn't specifically to lose weight, I just wanted to shed an inch or 3 off the belly. If I really tried hard, the weight would come off, but the belly stayed the same, I just lost my face (comments galore like- 'Are you OK?') and my "cushions", making sitting for any length of time a bit uncomfortable!
So I have now accepted that my shape AND weight can stay as they are. My main objective is to reduce sugar intake to a minimum as I believe it is responsible for many ailments (perhaps only for those with a pre-disposition), especially degenerative ones as we get older.
I am happy to report that I have not had one headache since I started, I can usually count on having at least one or two a week- so that's a good start. Also sleeping better/waking up feeling refreshed.
I am not a fan of exercise, but I don't sit about either. I will use the stairs instead of the lift; I'll cycle into town rather than drive and I'm up & down ladders all the time with work. But I wouldn't dream of just going out for a jog or spending half an hour on a cross-trainer lol!
So I've survived the first week, and ready (not dreading) to start the next.
More to come.... stay tuned!
 
Last edited:

countryboy

Elite Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Messages
4,345
Reaction score
723
Location
The king is dead long live the village idiot
Funnily enough this is almost exactly how I have eaten for years, and it is very easy to do here, there is a lot of healthy food 'on tap'; Mediterranean diet & all that. Again, that wasn't specifically to lose weight, I just wanted to shed an inch or 3 off the belly. If I really tried hard, the weight would come off, but the belly stayed the same, I just lost my face (comments galore like- 'Are you OK?') and my "cushions", making sitting for any length of time a bit uncomfortable!
So I have now accepted that my shape AND weight can stay as they are. My main objective is to reduce sugar intake to a minimum as I believe it is responsible for many ailments (perhaps only for those with a pre-disposition), especially degenerative ones as we get older.
I am happy to report that I have not had one headache since I started, I can usually count on having at least one or two a week- so that's a good start. Also sleeping better/waking up feeling refreshed.
I am not a fan of exercise, but I don't sit about either. I will use the stairs instead of the lift; I'll cycle into town rather than drive and I'm up & down ladders all the time with work. But I wouldn't dream of just going out for a jog or spending half an hour on a cross-trainer lol!
So I've survived the first week, and ready (not dreading) to start the next.
More to come.... stay tuned!
Mate diets only work with exercise . It's has to push your. Lift heavy or just don't lift . Run fast make you heart pump . I've always like the saying lift heavy or go home
 

trevortron

VIP Member
VIP Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
3,684
Location
Algarve, Portugal
Mate diets only work with exercise . It's has to push your. Lift heavy or just don't lift . Run fast make you heart pump . I've always like the saying lift heavy or go home
Yep, I would agree with that IF the objective was to lose weight and/or get into shape. My aim is simply to get (refined) sugar out of my diet, as I am concerned about its long term effects.
 
TEST
Top