!! This Problem Is Doin My Head In !!

Kommander

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I have been working on this problem for the past week and my head is about to explode with it, so I thought I would share it in the main forum to see if anyone has had the problem and resolved it.
I actually think that it may be a known problem with either a simple fix or a no you cant do that answer.
Anyway go get a drink then sit down and get comfortable while I go through the scenario...

I bought 2 Orton HD X403p receivers (also known as the Opticum HD 403p and others) for the kids bedroom up stairs.
I installed them and updated them with the latest Firmware and Channel List from Jimihendrix (thank you)
Great they worked right off the bat both of them.
Later my oldest son tuned into his favourite channel, Dave and it said "no signal" but i'm sure it had worked earlier.

I went into the settings and checked the frequency but there was no signal on that and a couple of others but the majority were all ok all at 98%.
I went downstairs and checked the signal on the skybox and checked the freq of Dave (11817) on my DM800SE and on that it was fine exactly the same as the others 98% and working great.
Over the past week I have tried many different things to get it working then at one point I switched off the voltage going to the LNB on the Orton/Opticum and "POW" the signal shot straight up to 98% and you were able to watch Dave.
I saved the settings then found out that Dave and Gold and Watch all worked but nothing else did. Now with the Orton/Opticum you cant save these settings individualy per TP so I setup another Satelite so I had 1 with the voltage on and one with it off.
This worked great and you were able to get everything. So I saved it all and did a full backup to usb with the intention of copying the lot to the other 403p in the other room.

To cut a very long story short heres what happened when I copied the setting to the second box...
Dave and the others on 11817 had no signal, but the box in the other room was working fine with exactly the same settings. So on 2nd box I reloaded the channel list from Jimihendrix and Dave started working... BUT if you chaged channel on Box1 Dave stopped working if you changed it back to Dave they bothe worked. If you changed channel away from Dave on Box2 Dave etc stopped working on Box1 and so on.
I dug out my old Spiderbox 9000 and swapped it out with box2 and both were able to operate as you would expect you can watch Dave, Watch, Gold etc and switch channels either way without losing signal.
I forgot to mention at the start ALL these boxes excepth the DM800SE are connected to a Sky Sat Dish with a Standard issue Sky Octo (8) LNB. (I suspect the problem lies in the control of the lnb)

My questions are...
Is this a known issue that people have come across before?
Is there a resolution?
Why does the problem only arise when I use 2 boxes of the same make, is it how they control the LNB?
If its not a known issue has anyone got any suggestions?

I would like to get the 403p back in place as box2 as the spiderbox does not handle cccam very well and freezes so I really need to get a fix for this or a recomendation for another cheap HD box to replace the 403p.

looking forward to you replies...
 
I forgot to mention and don't know if it is relevant but box2 is fed by a Twin Shotgun cable that was installed by Sky to feed the multiroom Sky Plus box which always had signal probs on bootup. But Cable was checked and new Octo LNB was installed 2 weeks ago cable check was ok. (Box was also replaced with another Sky+ refurb)
 
I really was hoping someone would have looked at this over the weekend and came up with an answer.
Or have I put this in the wrong section?
 
On some receivers the lnb output voltage is not very well regulated (its to high when not under a full load), you will probably find it will work when all the other receivers are fully disconnected, as when the receiver is powering the lnb on its own the voltage is pulled down a bit.

Solutions are, try a different LNB, preferably a different make, or you will need something to put a load on the lnb's voltage output, I know some receivers you could fine tune the voltage, but you dont see this very often now.

Vertical channels should feed 13volts, horizontal channels 18volts, obviously there is a point at which the lnb decides it one or the other, probably around 15volts ?
 
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On some receivers the lnb output voltage is not very well regulated (its to high when not under a full load), you will probably find it will work when all the other receivers are fully disconnected, as when the receiver is powering the lnb on its own the voltage is pulled down a bit.

Solutions are, try a different LNB, preferably a different make, or you will need something to put a load on the lnb's voltage output, I know some receivers you could fine tune the voltage, but you dont see this very often now.

Vertical channels should feed 13volts, horizontal channels 18volts, obviously there is a point at which the lnb decides it one or the other, probably around 15volts ?

Thanks g_p_t...

The receivers that are attached to this LNB are...
SKY+ HD Box
SKY+ Box
DM800SE
Spiderbox 9000HD
Opticum HD X403P
Opticum HD X403P

Its only the Opticum/Orton 403p's that are causing the problem and only with each other, none of the other boxes are affected in anyway, and none of the other boxes affect the 403p's either.
Just having the 2 same boxes anywhere in the equation seems to cause 1 of the 403P's to fail.
I think another visit to ebay for either an HD clone or an S9/S10 maybe, I cant remember which is which. Is the S9 better than the S10?
 
Iv seen this with a TM5402 on multifeed lnb system as well, was putting out 14.5v on vertical when not under load and the lnb was giving out horizontal signal, i would probably have a look to see if you can source i different make octo LNB this would bee a cheaper alternative to try first.
 
I swapped out the LNB for a Triax Quad but the problem still exists...
and where I thought the skybox doesnt affect it, it does.
I only had 2 boxes on the 403p and the SKY HD+ downstairs.
If I tune Sky to Dave on 111 and the 403p upsatirs works, if I tune the SKY box away from Dave, Watch or Gold then the 403p upstairs immediately says "No Signal"
WTF is going on? Anbody got any more ideas?
 
to rule out some form of cross interference on the LNB, can you connect one of the 403 receivers to a seperate LNB/dish?

is the Sky+HD box a thompson one?
 
Yep I can put it on the motorised dish along with the DM and check it out. This afternoon and post the results.
The SKY HD box is a a Pace.
 
OK I ran some tests today like Digi asked here are the results.
I put the 403p on my motorised system with a TM Quad LNB I had to delete all the channel data and rescan again this time with the voltage turned on and it picked up about 750 channels inc Dave, watch and Gold.
All the channels had full signals and the box was working like any other box, also on this system is my Sunray DM800SE, I did a split screen on the tv and put the 403p onto Dave and started switching channels about on the DM then started switching channels around on both sat boxes and at no time did any of the 2 of them lose a signal I then put a new Skybox S11 on the Motor LNB and gave all three a good pounding.. narf narf
But not once did any of them lose their signal.
So I took the 403p back upstairs plugged it back in to the skydish and it worked, right up until I changed the channel on the SKY+ HD Box then I couldnt get a signal at all on any channel with the 403p Until I went back to Dave and rebooted the 403.
I then decided to try the S11 which has been working great on the motorised kit. That too did exactly the same thing as the 403, didnt suprise me though as it is very similar software.
So I have decided that the problem is pointing at the Sky Dish and Octo LNB the Triax quad I tried could well be duff as it was the one used on the caravan dish and over time that got battered to hell.
Unless some of you guys can come up with a solution it looks like i'm gonna have to fork out about £40 for a TM Octo to be certain of not getting a sky one. Mind you thats not the problem, its hard to get a wheelchair up the ladder to the dish.
And will the sky HD boxes work with the TM LNB?
 
UPDATE:
Just dugg out my old crappy spiderbox 5000 and put that in place of the 403p and it works nothing happens when you change channels they all work ok with great strengths and qualities. Its just a shame the SD5000 doesn't handle cccam or a boxkey or gets firmware support.
I then decided to load up the octo and also put the DM800SE on it, that too worked great but unfortuately that aint the one for the kids bedroom.

So the mismatch is in cheap boxes and the cheap sky lnb.
It must be something to do with the LNB switching and I can only surmise that the Sky+ HD Box throws something at the lnb when changing channels that these little boxes cant handle.
My worry now is, if I throw money at a new TM Octo lnb, will the Sky+ receivers do the same to that one. I have no way of putting the sky+ HD box on the motorised system to check.

Has anyone got a similar setup either a 403p/s9/s10 on their sky dish along with official sky+ HD boxes OR Similar low cost boxes on a decent LNB with a Sky+ HD box in the link?
 
Whenever i'm online no matter where I am posting I always see the same fecker in the same place following me...
Get a life ya feckin weirdo
 
I really could do with some help on this guys.
Has nobody out there got an Official Sky+ HD box running with an open box on a sky quad or octo lnb?
Or had similar probs using sky lnb's.?
 
I used to have that exact setup but i lost the high frequncy hd channels on the openbox while the sky+hd box was turned on when i turned the sky+box off the openbox got all channels with the card in it

edogg
 
i can sort you out a sky quad lnb m8, PM me your addy and ill send one next week

sky boxes are always 'on' even in standby, its only recently that they have had a deep standby option enabled, and only on the latest boxes, but even then, they still power the dish for OTA software updates , card updates, etc, the 'lnb power' option on a sky digital receiver has NEVER actually done anything, as when set to standby, itll instead switch to the 'default transponder' setting to keep the EPG and card entitlements up to date

sky receivers are also knows, to be, generally, shit, lol

yes theyre VERY user firendly, but when theyre conning people into parting with ~£700 a year, they have to appeal to idiots

the noise that a sky receiver can introduce into a system running 'other' boxes can cause all sorts of issues, as it looks like youre finding out through elimination and trial and error, the worst culprit is the thompson HD receiver, and its VERY unstable power supply

but

the LNBs themselfs also have very little isolation between the inputs, a few years ago, sky used to install one dish with a quad lnb running 4 flats, as the electrical supply for the flats was coming from different phases, the lnbs, and a lot of the time the receivers as well, used to get the crap blown out of them, with the possibility of the case of a receiver becoming live @ 415 volts (the difference between electrical phases), people like me pointed this out (being a qualified spark) but as i was 'just an engineer' and the technical department had done all their homework, what did i know (its now law that earth bonding be fitted for some reason though lol)

try running the whole system with the sky box totally removed from it m8, see what happens
 
+0ne to that digi I should have said as soon as i removed the sky box everything is fine I used to turn mine off at the mains to view the channels i was losing

edogg
 
digi's comments sound right to me (but what do I know :)). Can you have a look at the earthing arrangements across all the boxes? When the s_y box is plugged in, you might just be completing one huge earth loop.
 
i can sort you out a sky quad lnb m8, PM me your addy and ill send one next week

sky boxes are always 'on' even in standby, its only recently that they have had a deep standby option enabled, and only on the latest boxes, but even then, they still power the dish for OTA software updates , card updates, etc, the 'lnb power' option on a sky digital receiver has NEVER actually done anything, as when set to standby, itll instead switch to the 'default transponder' setting to keep the EPG and card entitlements up to date

sky receivers are also knows, to be, generally, shit, lol

yes theyre VERY user firendly, but when theyre conning people into parting with ~£700 a year, they have to appeal to idiots

the noise that a sky receiver can introduce into a system running 'other' boxes can cause all sorts of issues, as it looks like youre finding out through elimination and trial and error, the worst culprit is the thompson HD receiver, and its VERY unstable power supply

but

the LNBs themselfs also have very little isolation between the inputs, a few years ago, sky used to install one dish with a quad lnb running 4 flats, as the electrical supply for the flats was coming from different phases, the lnbs, and a lot of the time the receivers as well, used to get the crap blown out of them, with the possibility of the case of a receiver becoming live @ 415 volts (the difference between electrical phases), people like me pointed this out (being a qualified spark) but as i was 'just an engineer' and the technical department had done all their homework, what did i know (its now law that earth bonding be fitted for some reason though lol)

try running the whole system with the sky box totally removed from it m8, see what happens

Sorry guys I've been to rainy Blackpool for a week with the kids.

@Digi I would love to take you up on your offer but its an Octo I need to cover the installation I have as I use 6 of the 8 outputs. I'll still PM my addy in case you ever come across a decent Octo.
I still have the multiroom box still in the loop which is a plain Sky Plus box I take it that needs to be removed as well as the Sky+ HD box?
I will give that a test tomorrow after the F1 in Korea and let you all know what happens.

If it is exactly what Digi says is there anyway to put in a perm fix without removing the Sky digi boxes. Would a change of LNB help at all? I was hoping to keep the Sky HD for recording purposes until I find a decent Twin Tuner with the EPG rec facilities of a Sky box. (Is there one?)

thanx guys
 
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